to be a bit sickened by the apparent 'feminism' under study in the Women documentary?

[mrsbean78]

Dad staying at home to care for kids = househusband
Mum staying at home to care for kids =
full time mum

Each man challenged about how much housework he does, yet "househusband" also challenged about how well he does the housework by a wife who is irritated that he shrinks her cashmere jumpers and doesn't clean the bins, when clearly, as she says, she couldn't be expected to work and do housework.

All participants apparently comfortably well off enough to make the 'choice' about who works and who doesn't, living in beautiful leafy-suburb/rural pad type homes.

I don't feel it is at all representative of my life and am finding it terribly patronising to the men, don't know how others feel?

The one who got closest to the truth of two working parents was probably the primary school teacher, who when asked said in so many words 'we don't really clean much' LOL.

BariatricObama you are so right. If men had the babies - you can bet your life they wouldn't be sitting important exams 5 days before hand.

A few more random thoughts...

1.If Mrs "I own cashmere jumpers" works from 8.30am until 3am next morning when does she manage to shop for them?

1. AIBU to be profoundly irritated by the woman who " couldn't possibly leave her children with anyone else?" Lucky you to have the choice love.

1. Who cares about cleaning the bath? Live in a hard water area - you don't get scum!

1. Have started my own (very small) protest by removing felicity wishes from dd's bedrooms.

i thought felecity wishes's husband was lovely. surely she could get an apprentice and spend more time shagging cleaning!

trouble is, no man is an island.

you can't do everything at once.
everyone is depending on someone for something
sahm, depending on the husbands income
wohm, depending on someone else to raise the children/look after them well.

so unless you have serious money in the bank, enough to live on for life, you need to decide what aspect you would prefer to rely on another person[s] for

i find it interesting just how many couples see money as his or hers rather than the families[one pot], society has become alot more greedy and selfish over the past 30 years too.
even when i used to earn more money than dh, it was never my money and his, it was always ours.
so attitudes towards money can make or break thing like this too.

there are other risk factors for a woman working fulltime too, such as a loss of main career responsilbilites, so say fairy drawing mum where to split with her dh, he would get the custody of the children more than likely

this doc was spoiled by the fact it only focused on the wealthy.

could have been much more interesting

I thought there was a very interesting point made about how the gender divide is never so apparent as when women become mothers.

IME I have had the same educational opportunities, the same employment prospects as any man... and yet having a baby has meant the following things have happened:

1. I have been excluded from a training programme

1. I have somehow been paid thousands less per annum than a male colleague with a less favourable apprasial record

1. I have been told I am "an unknown quantity" because I have taken maternity leave.

1. I have been excluded from the opportunity to apply for vacancies at work at promotion.

I am seeing my choices disappearing because I have taken maternity leave. It infuriates me.

It was a shame there were no true partnerships in that programme (except perhaps the SAHM who said she wasn't bored but even she was guilty about their "traditional" roles. I wish she didn't feel like that if it works for both her and her partner).

We need to move towards equality. If leave after birth of children/adoption could be shared between parents so they decide how to make it work for them maybe I would start wearing my wedding ring to interviews again?

My take on it is that these films are intended to be provocative, they are not intended to be a conventional documentary about 'women' (note it's called 'women' not 'feminism') which aims to tell the story of all women or a representative sample of women from different social groups. I think she selected middle class women deliberately to provoke exactly this sort of discussion, not because she thinks that they're the only ones that matter. The pioneers interviewed in the first film were middle class and my feeling was that she'd picked middle class women for the second film to encourage the viewer to compare and contrast.

the women in teh first documentary were well known activists and intellectuals. lovely as lorella etc were i don't think there is a comparison to be made.

Hi all
I am the rural mum who was in the documentary (literally, not figuratively). In response to some of the comments above, I wish I hadn't come across so wishy washy about the fact that my husband and I have traditional roles- it suits us both fine and I'm happy with the coice. A bit which ended up on the cutting room floor was husband saying he will be happy to swap roles in the future but at the moment he's got greater earning capacity. WRT the Aga- I've never had one before- we rent this house (can't afford to buy)- it's ancient and delapidated, I hate the bloody aga- expensive and wasteful, but that's what's been here since 1950 something.
I did want to look after my own children, so we've just taken the financial hit- no foreign holdiays, home-maintained cars- make the kids toys, scrimp and save. It's all choice- we've (women) earned the right to make those choices.
Funny documentary in the end- more about household chores than I expected it to be.

LuBenT! sorry for snorting at the aga but it was fairly symbolic of the whole middle classness. i thought your life looked lovely. are you happy?

Hi LuBenT

If you're happy and your husband's happy too that's feminism at it's best (IMHO).

Glad you don't really feel guilty about your traditional roles. I thought you (and the lady who left her husband) were the only real heroines of feminism in the programme because you both made choices and were happy with your choices.

... without making excuses for your husbands' (obviously one lady chose to leave hers )

dh argued over which women seemed teh happiest he thought lorella, i thought LuBenT!

Ah, thanks! Yes, I'm happy, he's happy. We both respect what the other does. We're lucky, but I feel like we work hard for it. I've got a degree and all that sh*t but it feels more important to drag the kids up well at the min.
Also, I reckon life out in the sticks is different to life for women in cities. Most people round here get by with family help for childcare still- and work is pretty scarce. I appreciate living in different areas comes with advantages and drawbacks.
Am looking forward to seeing third prog about young feminists in London- they'll be impressive I think.

I disagree BO. There is a direct comparison to be made in that both groups of women are (apart from one) white and middle class, i.e. - with apologies for the phrase - ruling class. The pioneers in the first film came from a similar demographic to the women in the second film. The pioneers became activists. I think one of the questions Engle is asking is "where are today's activists?" (which is the subject of the third film, I think).

lubent, where you the one that said thats not feminism that capalitism and capitalism and consumerism?

if so i was cheering for you and saying here here!
oh and claping!

your happy, your dh is happy your children are happy.
i think you are a great example.

Avril

You forgot to add "ignoring the housework for as long as possible".

DH and I are both slightly rumpled feminists living in a filty house

hi molesworth!

women, give me a rocket to put up my book group's arse....something contemporary, feminist and compelling as hell!

I haven't seen the programme but it sounds like the sort of thing that makes me think that feminism and capitalism are not very compatible.

LuBenT - I lived you, although I did write on another post that I would have like less fruit picking and more shouting and cbeebies.

You made one of the most important points (albeit quietly) that feminism isn't about cleaning or cooking, it's about being heard and recognised.

you look happy with your choice, I think perhaps the programme could have looked more at women who don't have that choice and what feminism has really achieved for them

sorry, that should have been 'loved'

Justanothermanicmummy - us too!
LuBenT - cheers for making the seriously underdiscussed point about feminism vs capitalism. Now that you are watching the documentary, how do you feel about it? Did you feel it represented your life fairly, given what you say about what was cut?
Hmmm. Wondering what the agenda of this series is, truly.

Just something else to throw into the mix...

This capitalism/consumerism angle. Is feminism partly responsible for some of that? Previously the middle-classes lived off one salary, which was enough to buy a house, pay the bills etc. Then we started seeing women going out to work too (quite right too) but now it takes two salaries and then some, to buy a house, pay the bills etc.

As LuBenT says, they can't afford to buy somewhere and be a SAHM.

There really is no "having it all is there"? Something has to give somewhere.

I wonder, JustAnotherManicMummy, if it's not the other way round.. if it became okay for women to push for "liberation" because from a capitalist viewpoint, this was good for economic progression. Which then fuelled rising house prices etc. Which also fuelled an increase in supply and demand of jobs that wouldn't otherwise exist before e.g. the professionalising of childcare, the creation of endless quangoes policing that childcare etc.

I continue to find it difficult that I am ludicrously over-qualified, earn a professional wage, as does my husband, and yet live in a two-bed ex-council house laughably far from either of our workplaces and pay almost half my income out to farm my child out to a nursery setting I would rather he didn't attend. We are enslaved by the fact that, even though our mortgage is quite reasonable by the standards of others we know, we still both need to work to sustain it. We looked into selling and renting but found that the cost of the average 3 bed rental was still to high to allow for one of us/both of us to stay home. It's a no win situation.

jamm, yes i hear what your saying.
probably partly why house prices have soared to crazy amounts