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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

stopping my kids going to a Catholic Church

576 replies

jennyslinger · 17/03/2010 22:57

I know religion is contentious so I'd like to say up front that I am a confirmed atheist and my DH is a confirmed catholic. This is not about the rights or wrongs of believing in god.

DH wants DS and DD (when she's 4yo) to go to our local Cathocis church to attend sunday school and get involved with other church activities.

I have read so much over the last few years about the child abuse cover-up in the Catholic Church. For this reason I have told DH and his family that the kids will not be going.

DH says I am fussing over nothing.

I asked DH he knew a nursery had covered up child abuse would he be happy with the kids going. He says this is not the same.

Am I being unreasonable?

OP posts:
OtterInaSkoda · 18/03/2010 12:37

Sorry - x-posted.

daftpunk · 18/03/2010 12:39

amber1979....

You have a very interesting mind....

...I think you should leave your brain to science when you depart this world...

OtterInaSkoda · 18/03/2010 12:40

I do think Rageesta's post was extreme. I kind of see where she was coming from but I don't agree with her. I still don't think she was saying that all Catholics were paedophiles - she argues that they are all complicit. This is splitting hairs somewhat though - and like I said, I don't agree with her.

claw3 · 18/03/2010 12:42

Swan, no worries the thread is getting heating!

Lesinge, glad to see someone got my point, i can take of my flame retardant vest now, phew!

amberlight · 18/03/2010 12:47

Plenty of research showing that children brought up in one respectable faith have better life outcomes than those taught that 'all faiths or none' are equally valid. It's why it is a Human Right in European and UK law.

"A substantial body of research has demonstrated a consistent and reliable link between religious factors (such as regular attendance at religious services) and benefits to health and well-being (studies summarised in George, Ellison & Larson, 2002). Similarly, resilience research shows that religiosity and church attendance are protective factors associated with adolescent health behaviour (Jessor et al., 1998)." (comment in an email to me from one of the Government advisers on children's wellbeing)

seeker · 18/03/2010 12:47

'
I admit The cover up was almost as bad as the abuse.....but if you think the catholic church are the only organisation good at cover ups I suggest you read up on the babyP case.

..Ofsted don't come out very well...they are pretty good at "losing" reports ."

And if this thread wass about either of those organizations I might be posting about them. As it isn't, I don't see the relevance.

I wish people would stop fogging the issue by being offended at imaginary accusations of paedophilia, and actually address the real issue here. Which is the systematic collusion and cover up of child abuse at the very highest level of the Catholic church.

claw3 · 18/03/2010 13:00

The thread doesnt seem to be about child abuse and the cover up, it seems to be about whether anyone should still be or join that faith with that knowledge?

AuntieMaggie · 18/03/2010 13:06

I would let them go to church with your husband and learn about his religion - that way they can make their minds up when they're older.

If you're worried about their safety perhaps you can put some conditions in place to prevent anything happening to them.

But I think it's fair that they get to see both sides of their parents beliefs.

seeker · 18/03/2010 13:07

Sorry, didn't make myself clear. What I would like to hear is how anyone can actually continue to be a member of an organization with the history of collusion and cover up that the Catholic Church has in relation to child abuse.

it is too easy tobe outraged and say "well, I'm not an abuser and neither is my parish priest - how dare you suggest that we are?"

It is much harder to justify belonging to a church where a culture where a history of cover up and collusion goes right up to the Pope - and which remains unresolved.

thesilverlining · 18/03/2010 13:13

YABU!!!

Yet another example of tarring with the same brush! WOuld you suggest all Germans are Nazis? Or all football supporters are hooligans?

Being catholic does not make you predisposed to abuse! As someone married to a Catholic you should realise that your children need to be exposed to both their parents heritage - if you feel that strongly against the catholic church why are you married to a catholic man? You must have realised that at some point your children would be exposed to the church? I think your reasons to be honest are shallow and extremely prejudiced.

If you are that concerned about leaving your children in the clutches of catholic sunday school then why don't you go with them? You might learn something about compassion, love and community and so will your children. Whats the harm in those?

tartyhighheels · 18/03/2010 13:14

My FIL is on of those who suffered oin a place called Letterfrack - google it, it will blow your mind. However, my H is a Catholic as are my children, doing first holy communions and attending a Catholic school etc - I think you are just being silly about this really, no one can even breeze past a child nowdays without being checked etc so I think this is a red herring. If you donT want them to go then donT let them go but dont make mealy mouthed mumblings about abuse - have the courage of your convictions and make a decision based on something sensible. Your argument however is a bit null and void when you had them baptised Catholic!

daftpunk · 18/03/2010 13:14

You said you wouldn't join the catholic church because they covered up child abuse...I merely pointed out that other organisations involved with children have been guilty of covering up...I don't think I could have given you a better example than ofsted.

I am just sick of the catholic bashing on here...the catholic church made mistakes...they will learn from them and move on..

You sound like the sort of person who wouldn't live in Germany because of it's associations with Hitler.

glastocat · 18/03/2010 13:18

I'm an atheist, as is my husband, although he was brought up Catholic. We live in Ireland and my son goes to a Catholic church because 99% of schools here are Catholic. If there was a secular school anywhere near I'd send him there.

So I know and love a lot of Catholics. And I have had many a discussion on this subject. Because I have similar feelings to the OP. I do not believe my child is at risk of being abused (or I'd be home-schooling). But I do wonder how people can remain in an organisation which covered up such vile acts, and did so in an organised manner. Even my still devout mother in law says that everyone knew about the violence and sex abuse, but people kept quiet because the priests were such powerful figures in those days, and people could not countenance the idea of being rejected by the church, because they would have been shunned. And even now people make excuses for them! FGS an Irish archbishop suggested a few weeks ago that the congregations should dig deeper in the pockets, because the church would have a lot of expenses to meet with respect to making financial reparation for the abuse! Is it any wonder people are disgusted, including many Catholics! Anyway, I am very proud that I know several life-long Catholics that have had the strength to walk away from the church, including my childminder, a woman in her 60s who says she was beaten every day at school (and as a left hander had her left hand tied behind her back at school). She examined her consciense and decided she wanted no part of it, so she just stopped going. I admire her enormously for that, and would like to think if I was a member of a church or organisation that had covered up such evil behaviour, I would do the same.

Phew, bit of a rant there, sorry.

claw3 · 18/03/2010 13:18

Seeker, that is your question, that is not what JS was saying.

Still a fair point, which i cannot answer, as im not part of any faith.

Gracie123 · 18/03/2010 13:19

I think it's a thorny issue. I am a christian myself (as is DH) but we don't just let our children go to sunday school at any church. In fact I didn't let DS go to sunday school in our own church until we had been there nearly a year, and even then only when people I knew were on the rota.

I have worked in churches before where none of the childrens work team were trained or checked in anyway. They were all lovely people, but I don't think their religion is good enough to say that I would leave my children with a total stranger. Partly it's not very fair on the child who doesn't know them!

As a compromise, would you be willing to have various members of the childrens work team over to get to know you and your kids before you make any decisions? You might decide that they are lovely people and you want them to do sunday school, but unless you are both happy, I don't think it's fair of your husband to make you leave your children with people you don't trust.

thesilverlining · 18/03/2010 13:20

Being British makes us part of a group that historically have covered up abuse. There are so many examples in history not least slavery and the practice of sending children away to australia because they are poor etc (as seen in recent news re the apology from the government). Would you suggest that we should make a stand against being British because of our history of cover ups and appalling human rights violations at the highest levels?

Just to balance this out were you aware of the role played by convents in WW2 at hiding Jewish children from the Nazis - at great danger and personal cost to the Nuns? The Catholic church has much to be proud of - that is why I am able to stay a part of "that organisation". Yes there have been mistakes - but as in any organisation sometimes the PR machine moves too quickly to consider the consequences of its actions on the future reputation of said organisation.

glastocat · 18/03/2010 13:21

Ooops, I should have said my son goes to Catholic school, not Catholic church. We don't go to church at all ( and he wasn't christened or confirmed).

seeker · 18/03/2010 13:21

daftpunk - please tell me where I have catholic-bashed?

I have asked a legitimate question which no-one will answer.

You say that the Church will learn from it's mistakes. When?

seeker · 18/03/2010 13:23

And while you are about it, please will you point me towards the "bollox" and "shocking post" you accused me of earlier on?

LeSingeEstDansLarbre · 18/03/2010 13:27

dunno so much about the church's record in ww2, tbh, it doesn't bear much scrutiny afaia. the vatican high heidyuns are a shower of power-hungry shitbags, imo, but in a weird way i think of them as being totally disconnected from The Church as a people. i can see that must sound odd so i will have to think about it more...

meanwhile, more abuse stories from germany. did ratzinger know? i really do not like him.

daftpunk · 18/03/2010 13:28

I will come back to you seeker...give me 15..

I have to feed Trotsky...

glastocat · 18/03/2010 13:29

I also don't believe that the fact that there are many good Catholic people, and many good priests that have done many good things, is in any way enough to justify the bad things that have been done in the name of Catholicism. Including the church's attitude to women, homosexuality, contraception and abortion.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 18/03/2010 13:30

Ratzinger not only knew, he reiterated (fairly recently) an old ruling (from the 1960's) that it should be covered up. People were threatened with excommunication.

LeSingeEstDansLarbre · 18/03/2010 13:31

well, no. he's saying that was a mis-translation according to lunchtime news.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 18/03/2010 13:36

From the BBC website:

"He also denied that a "wall of silence" had been erected by Pope Benedict in 2001, when he signed an official Vatican document telling Catholic Bishops around the world to keep secret the details of priestly misbehaviour that they reported to Rome.

This was simply a case of mistranslation of the text, according to Monsignor Scicluna: "The Church does not like to showcase justice, but has never banned the denouncing of crimes to the civil authorities," he said."

Oh, really. Gosh, how convenient.

That bastard knew damn fine what was happening, and was complicit in covering it up.