stopping my kids going to a Catholic Church

[jennyslinger]

I know religion is contentious so I'd like to say up front that I am a confirmed atheist and my DH is a confirmed catholic. This is not about the rights or wrongs of believing in god.

DH wants DS and DD (when she's 4yo) to go to our local Cathocis church to attend sunday school and get involved with other church activities.

I have read so much over the last few years about the child abuse cover-up in the Catholic Church. For this reason I have told DH and his family that the kids will not be going.

DH says I am fussing over nothing.

I asked DH he knew a nursery had covered up child abuse would he be happy with the kids going. He says this is not the same.

Am I being unreasonable?

It's the cover up not the abuse that's the worst of it (though the abuse is terrible - as I've said just because it's not exclusive to

Priest who tried to reveal the truth where silenced

This is the truth about the hierarchy of the church

Maybe you who keep incorrectly accusing people of saying all priest and Catholics are abusers (no one has as far as I can see) should acknowledge how corrupt the church is and stop saying that just because it goes on in other institutes then people who dislike the catholic church (note not catholics this is the bit people seem to be getting confused at) are ignorant.

If the head of the scouts ignored the facts and moved this abusive man to a different troop, silenced up anyone who tried to report the indicants and believed the scouts to be above the law then I'd have a problem with the scouts too.

It's not a 'tiny' number BTW and this denial is horrific for the survivors of the abuse

So just because abuse happens in other places we shouldn't challenge the Catholic Church on it's record/ Where did anyone say that abuse doesn't happen in other organizations?

And as far as I am aware, the Scout Movement does not routinely move leaders who have abused children to other troops, or get the family of the victim to take a vow of silence. Not do it's representatives appear on the radio saying that there is no moral obligation to report an abuser to the police.

The Catholic church gave 'compensation' to some abused children on condition that they would keep the identities of the accused abusers secret. They then re-located these abusers and allowed them to carry on abusing.

Think of that next time you put your money in the pot.

Hear hear Buddleja.

I can't believe people saying that there were only a tiny amount of abusers. I think they need to google Goldenbridge, Artane, Letterfrack and Magdalene Launderies, among many many others. And that was just in Ireland!

Apologists disgust me, they really do. If the members of the Catholic church stood up and said enough, I would have much more respect for them. Instead they support the heirarchy who appear to be doing everything to minimise or dismiss the suffering that was carried out in the name of Catholicism. Where is their shame?

OK, since this one is still going...

People who have been saying that because the Catholic Church condoned and disguised evil things that happened in the past, anyone who signs up for it is themselves condoning the evil. Even though the vast vast majority of grassroots members of the church are themselves horrified by what happened. This happened in the past and yes, it was dreadful and an awful thing to have happened, but things are being done now to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I'm a member of the Catholic church because I believe very strongly in all that it stands for regarding social justice, fighting for the poor and underprivileged, sacrifice of self in the interest of others, stewardship of God's creation, essentially the values that Christ stood for.

Yes, the officials of the Catholic church have overseen some bad things and there have been some bad leaders (personally I'm no great fan of Ratzinger), but does that have to utterly cancel out all the good that has been done and is still being done by so many?

How about seeing a parallel with this country. People who vote Labour because they believe in the values of that party - the responsibility of the individual to society, health care and education for all, workers' rights as more important than big business. First of all, even the most ardent Labour supporter will have to admit that that many of those values have been degraded over the last decade. How about an example of bad leadership which shouldn't be taken as representing the whole party - what about Tony Blair? He took this country into a war in which many thousands of innocent people died, and lied about the reasons for doing it. He claimed it was for one reason when subsequently he (and many other people in authority in his party) have had to admit that they were doing it for other reasons.

Will everyone who has ever voted Labour now stop doing that because of this one bad person doing (and trying to get away with) bad things? Do all the good things done by Labour workers in the constituencies now count for absolutely nothing? Would people refuse to have anything to do with a Labour supporter because they must therefore have been in favour of the wars in the Middle East?

Why should the tarring with a huge brush go for religious believers but not for political supporters? It's quite possible to be a Catholic and say of the abuse scandals, as people have done of the war, Not in my name.

BattyKoda, the collection money in my parish is mostly put towards the local homeless hostel and supporting a group that take learning disabled children out for trips to give their carers some time off. Pretty dreadful causes...

I'm fairly new on mumsnet and i am absolutely amazed by some of the narrowmindedness of the posts, if people chose to be catholic or any other faith for that matter that is there choice and they should be able to make that choice without being patronised, belittled and made to feel that their faith is worthless. You athesists must know something the rest of us dont if you are so convinced you are right and anyone with anykind of faith must be absolutely mad. The op began this with being unhappy for her dc to be involved with an organisation that would cover up abuse, i wonder how many of the heirarchy in the church were responsible for the cover up and exactly how many in the heirarchy that would have done everygthing in their power to bring it to an end and ensure it never happend again if they had known about it. However the press couldnt make a story out of that! I would like to take a bet that there were more ofthe latter. So surely if you are going to vitoe an organisation because of one side of the story you have surely got to find out if you have the full story. Eh JS?

And i'm curious to know just how many of the cardinals and bishops are posting on here as you all seem to know so much about what happened, dont tell me... you read it on wikipedia, so it must be true ha. I am not trying to trivilise the abuse which obviously happened just amazed that you are all experts!

mrsblueskys, you may have missed it, but the Irish catholic abuse scandals have been all over the news for quite some time. Also I have spoken to many Catholics who have either been personally affected by abuse, admit that they knew about it and did nothing, or have chosen to walk away in disgust. Speaking for myself only, I do my best to respect other peoples right to hold the beliefs they choose. But I am allowed to believe that they are daft to hold those beliefs, and complicit if they choose to stay members of an organisation that I think is behaving in a despicable manner. To run with your Labout party analogy, well I voted for them in 97, but walked away from supporting the party after their part in Iraq. I expect decent catholics to do the same, and walk away from a corrupt organisation, If they don't, well, they can't expect me to respect them.

And jumpjockey, please don't attempt to minimise the abuse by saying it was 'in the past' For a start, it wasn't that long ago, and I will eat my hat if there is no abuse going on at the minute. Its bad enough that the catholic heirarchy are still covering up. minimising, and asking their flock to pay reparations to victims, instead of perhaps begging for forgiveness and selling some vatican gold to pay reparations themselves. FGS, only today the Bishop of Derry has been accused of paying out cash to cover up the abuse of an eight year old girl over a TEN YEAR period, starting in 1979.

I would be ashamed to be part of an organisation that behaved like that.

Glastocat, i can not imagine even one of the many catholics i know being aware of abuse and choosing to do nothing about it, i feel sorry that you do. And the catholic faith is mainly about an individual's relationship with God, i believe it to be the same in most religions, and so it would be harsh to expect people to give up the faith they like to follow and believe in because some members of the organisation did dispicable things, if they themselves were unaware and uninvolved. I guess when some private school covers up some abuse that manages to stay out of the press, we'll all know because every member of staff will up and walk out?

"And i'm curious to know just how many of the cardinals and bishops are posting on here as you all seem to know so much about what happened, dont tell me... you read it on wikipedia, so it must be true ha. I am not trying to trivilise the abuse which obviously happened just amazed that you are all experts!"

Depends it you stand by the denial of the catholic church about the leaked vatican document, if you stand by it then there is no knowing who knew or who didn't. If you believe it to be true then all bishops at one point knew.

mrsbluskys, while you cannot imagine it, as I said earlier in the thread, here in Ireland catholic institutional abuse was a pretty open secret. And if members of a public school realised that the heirarchy was not only involved in abuse, but had conspired over generations to cover up, deny and shame any whistleblowers of abuse, then yes, I bloody well would expect them to walk out. What I don't understand is, why many Catholics think this is ok. It is still going on, how on earth can you justify it, or ignore it?

Who on earth said it was ok!!But why should a person have to give up their faith because of the dispicable actions of other people? you cannot honestly believe there is a single person, catholic or not who thinks abuse is ok?

One thing this deliberately inflammatory (ie trollish) OP has done is to caricature atheists as unthinking dimwits. I can assure you that is not universally true, mrsblueskies. Most of us can see that tarring all Catholics as abusers is patent nonsense. Personally, I did leave the Catholic Church, but I understand that many who have stayed want to fight the hierarchy and get justice for the victims of abuse (who were, afterall, Catholic children). I left the Labour Party even before Blair because I think that the argument of reform from within is futile- but who knows? Revolutionary politics met a dead end too. Most of us are just good people trying our best.

and exactly when did i say it should be ignored or tried to justify it, all i am saying is that if a catholic wants to maintain their faith they should be able to do so without being vilified because of the actions of others.

mrsblueskys of course they should be allowed to follow their faith if they wish, I don't see where anyone said otherwise. But if they do choose to remain Catholic, then they can't expect me to admire that choice.

I'm sorry i dont understand your post, we're talking about catholics and their faith is catholicism, in maintaining their relationship with god.

And quite a few Catholics obvioulsy did think abuse was ok, otherwise it wouldn't have happened!

You do know that these weren't just isolated incidents? Have a look at this, it'll give you some idea of the scale of it - thousands and thousands of abused children. And that's just in one small country!

www.independent.ie/national-news/state-of-shame-1746476.html

Hi Jennyslinger, I haven't read this whole thread but to answer your question, I believe NO, you are not being unreasonable. I was raised a Catholic, I too am an atheist, I think it's hard going for you that your dh has such different views. You just want to protect your dc and frankly why should you be put in a position which makes you feel so uneasy. It's hard enough raising dc. Right now it is just common sense that children and the Catholic church should be far, far, far apart.

I know I'm not going to allow my dc to be any where near them. We had our 1st christened to humour my folks but ds 8 mths, it's not going to happen.

mrsblueskys it is quite possible to maintain a relationship with god without being a member of a corrput organisation. So I'm told anyway.

corrupt

Probably time for bed.

Hi again Jennyslinger, I also just want to say sorry for the negative attitude you were so fast in receiving to your post, I don't think people were being fair to you, your query is perfectly reasonable.

I am Irish, I live in Ireland and I have seem many, many families torn apart because of abuse often with a basis in the Catholic church. Good luck, follow your heart and your head.

The whole history of the RC church is about political power, child abuse is just part of this historical process. They will never apologize or admit any form of culpability. As a disinterested observer I would like to know why Christianity and Roman Catholicism ever got linked together.