to think if you can't be bothered being strict about road safety you should watch your child properly?

[Cobweb95]

My friend is up in arms because she found her 4 yr old DS in the road outside nursery the other day. Someone left the gate open and he wandered out. While she was busy having a chat. Luckily there were no cars around at the time.

When she first told me how angry she was, I assumed she meant with her DS. But she is angry that none of the other mums stopped him or told him to go back in. I can just about see her point there, but now she is trying to get everyone to complain to the (lovely) nursery about their security. I don't think that's necessary - there is a sign telling you to keep the gate closed, but these things happen, and personally I think parents need to be really strict about children learning to stop at the road. I'm 99% certain my 4 yr old would stop, due to extensive training, and I'd come down extremely hard on him if he didn't, especially without looking first.

This particular mum is.....vague I would say. She certainly thinks it's normal for a 4 yr old to not know about stopping at roads.

Am I being unreasonable?

It may not hurt for the nursery to do a little memo to parents reminding them to shut the gate behind them, as a boy ran out into road the other day blah blah blah. But I don't agree if her motives are to get the nursery staff into trouble etc.

As I think all parents have responsibility for shutting the gate as they come in or out.

She should've been watching her child IMO. But maybe that's just me, but accidents do happen and there will always be a risk they ran out of gate if open etc.

If she had already collected her DS then he was under her care IMO and not the nursery's responsibility. They could, perhaps, put a spring on the gate so that it slams shut by itself, but then that has its own safety implications with the possibility of trapped limbs and fingers.

I'm not sure that all 4 yr olds are road safe even with the best training though. Plenty of children are very impulsive and training gets forgotten in the excitement. I'm very confident that my 2 yr old wouldn't go on the road but I do have to bark at my 5 yr old now and then to remind him about road safety.

I think it depends very much on the 4 year old - some will be good at / used to stopping at roads if they spend a lot of time walking, some almost certainly won't be. Does this nursery also have under-4s? I must admit, I would be pretty cross if my child had 'escaped' from nursery !

YANBU to think her son should know about road safety, but YABU to think that she shouldn't be upset. Of course one of the other mums should have stopped him (though I presume no-one saw him or else they would have) and the gate SHOULD have been closed. It's a bit judgey to add that she was 'busy having a chat' as if she should never take her eyes off her ds and never, ever - shock horror - stop to chat to someone. She obviously felt he was safe and wouldn't come to any danger. As you say yourself, mistakes happen.

Getting everyone to complain is OTT, she should complain herself, I'm sure the nursery will be horrified, and it will probably never happen again.

As a way of getting her child to learn about road safety, maybe suggest some sort of special activity or lesson at the school, in light of what happened? I'm sure they'd be keen to teach the kids about safety and show that they take it seriously.

Yes, but what if the gate had been left open and a younger child escaped?

Besides, even the best 'trained' 4yo is prone to distractions - the gate should have been closed.

I am that security is so lame that a child can just get out into the road tbh.

At my dds nursery, you come to a gate, have to press a buzzer and be recognised by a camera before they open the gate for you. Then you walk through a passage bit and come to another gate which is always bolted. Only then do you reach the children if they are playing outside. Otherwise you go through another door and get your dc.

Parents are also TOLD not to leave the gate open under any circumstances.

Personally I think it's dangerous to be 99% certain of your 4yo doing anything predictable.

Had she already collected her ds or was she having a chat BEFORE going in to collect him?

No she had collected him and was standing chatting with other mums when he wandered off. This part of the school is for just the 4yr olds.

I was just a bit surprised she didn't seem to think her telling her child not to go in the road was important. She seems to see him as too young to understand - I don't agree with that at all. You can't just contain them forever so why not start young with the important things like road safety? I would have told my child off firmly as soon as I found him and made sure he was ok, and made it priority to practise stopping at roads. But she just took him inside without a word and insists it's the nursery/other mum's fault.

I do agree with you about 4-year-olds being able to do this - I did not absolutely 100% trust my ds to stop at the road at that age given some exciting reason such as a ball, but basically he had been taught to stop at the pavement from the day he could walk, and he certainly never did run into the road at that age (it happened once when he was 2 which is obviously my fault).

However, I do think that a nursery, containing 2-year-olds, should be pretty hot about gates and roads, and she does have a point.

She needs to tell him rather than blaming everyone else but other adults are to blame if they let him walk into the road. It was obvious there was no parent there. What were they thinking? "Oh if he gets killed that'll be a lesson to her"

The other parents who didn't stop the 4-year-old walking out may not have realised he was alone - if another mum went out of the gate just before or just after, they could easily have assumed that the child was with that mum.

But the parents who use that nursery do need reminding about keeping the gate closed, and by not closing it, I think they were responsible for anything that might have happened. Yes, it is each parent's responsibility to keep an eye on their child or children, but it is so easy to be distracted for a second and for a child to run off, and the closed gate is the line of defence against a child ending up in the road if they have got away from their mum or dad.

When ds1 was in Year2, ds2 was in Reception and ds3 was rising 2, I had something similar happen to me - having seen ds2 into his class, I was trying to get ds1 into his class, on a wet day which meant having to go into the cloakroom with the children, and I took my eye off ds3 for a split second, in the crowded cloakroom, and he disappeared.

I realised at once he was missing and rushed into the playground, but he was nowhere to be seen - it didn't help that the playground had three exits and plenty of nooks and crannies for a small child to hide in. A frantic search didn't find him, and I was just heading into the office to check if someone had found him and taken him there, when a friend of mine came up to me, holding ds3's hand - she'd found him buy the busy A13 outside the school.

He had walked out of the playground amongst other mums and children, and no-one had realised he wasn't with his own mum until my friend saw him and realised I was nowhere to be seen. Everything was OK in the end, but it could have ended so differently.

Tootlafuit I would absolutely stand and have a chat, but I would not assume my child was automatically safe. He knows, and is often reminded, about staying near and not going out of the gate alone etc. I would rather put my effort into instilling responsibility for safe behaviour into my children rather than trusting others to keep the environment safe.

I know everyone will not agree with that, and if I was looking after someone else's child for example, I wouldn't assume anything and would watch them the whole time.

MsSparkle your nursery sounds like Fort Knox. If that's normal, I find it very depressing.

I should have said, Cobweb, that my own experience makes me feel that your condemnation of your friend is a little unfair - even the best of mothers can get distracted for the second it takes for a child to run off. No parent should rely on the nursery gate being shut, but equally all parents using a nursery should realise the importance of closing the gate!

StayingDavidTennantsGirl your ds was so little and they really do need to be watched all the time at that age. But I think a 4 yr old should have been taught both not to run off and to stop at roads.

I wasn't outside when it happened so I don't know how many mums were around but chances are there were some as it was pick up time.

YANBU, but I can see why this is an issue which will have two sides.

On the one hand, that a small child was able to just wander off by himself with no one watching isn't great at all, and it would be nice if the gate was a little more secure, or there were more reminders to keep it closed.

But on the other hand, if the mother in question wasn't paying any attention to her child at all, and refuses to accept even partial liability for what happened (as you said, she had already collected him, so he wasn't in the nursery's care any more) then she's being rather out of line. It isn't the nursery's fault she wasn't watching him, and she shouldn't be relying on other mothers to watch her child - though I'd like to think that if I saw someone else's child heading for the road I'd stop them.

She should at least acknowledge that if her child knows nothing about road safety and is liable to wander off if unsupervised, then she needs to keep a closer eye on him. If she wants to complain to the nursery, fine, no one can stop her, but she shouldn't be encouraging other people to do the same.

So what I mean, StayingDavidTennantsGirl is that in your case these things can happen, you get distracted etc, and your ds was too little to understand, whereas in this case the child should have been taught to stop/stay near (I know this mum reasonably well and she definitely doesn't impose boundaries).

I don't think many 4-year-olds are that utterly reliable, Cobweb - even the best behaved one can have a sudden impulse and run off - hence the need for the parents to ensure that the nursery gate stays closed.

But I do take your point that parents have a responsibility for their own children and should be making sure that they are taught to stay close or (when a bit older) not to go outside the playground.

Firstly, it's not a main road, it's a very quiet road.

I still maintain my children would stop. And I've already said I would not assume other people's dcs would, and would watch them extra carefully.

I also always close the gate. But I would not rely on others doing that.

I just find this so depressing.

YABU to be so judgy but YANBU to expect parents to teach their children good road sense. Agree with ScreaminEagle to be honest. It is your responsiblity as a nursery parent/carer to make sure the gate is closed behind you. From the nursery's perspective, it would be wise to have a door that sprang (slowly!) closed ... ours has one of these and there is a finger sized gap to make sure fingers don't get trapped.

She is being unreasonable to EXPECT other parents to stop him. Why would they know exactly what was going on. She would not be unreasonable to ask the nursery to send out a memo to parents and put a massive sign on the door reminding them to close it behind them, even if there are other people around who might be coming out at some point in the future.

I know a parent who lets her 4 yo DS scoot off down a road (no paths) where there are parked cars, lots of pedestrians and cars going to and from school. He will be maybe 50m away from her. She jogs behind, calling for him to slow down, rolling her eyes at us as if to say "he never listens". MAKE HIM LISTEN!! Take the scooter away from him until he learns the rules.

Just to add, I live on a fairly busy road. Road sense has been one of our biggest priorities. We hold hands, we stop, we look, listen, we don't run, wait for green man, we don't scoot on paths of main roads etc etc etc. I am constantly amazed at what others let their children do (e.g. will just amble across a road with their 2 yo trailing behind them).

HOWEVER, I would not be 100% convinced my 7yo would behave sensibly if she saw a friend on the other side of a road. My almost 4yo - definitely wouldn't trust her. Just so easily distracted and temperamental.

Yanbu. She is. In the heat of the moment you could understand why she wants someone to blame, but trying to whip up a campaign after the fact is unreasonable.

If my child runs away from me, that is my responsibility. How on earth can the other parents or the nursery be to blame? I know I could turn my back on my five year old and she would still be in the immediate vicinity 15 minutes later. I know that if I turn my back on the 3 year old then the likelihood is she will have disappeared within seconds. So I don't turn my back on her. I am perfectly cabable of chatting, keeping an half an eye on her and another half an eye on potential dangers or exit points. I though that was what we all do, but obviously not.

Well yes Gubbins. You know your own child, and I totally accept kids are all different in at what age they can be trusted to stick to the rules you set. That is, if you set any rules. The mum concerned is very nice but imo not strict enough with her dcs. The 4 yr old old doesn't like sitting in his car seat so she she lets him sit on her lap in the car, for example. Up to her how she parents, obviously, but imo safety issues are not up for negotiation, and you certainly can't start blaming others if you never made any effort to teach your child basic safety.

I've changed my mind, Cobweb - any mother who allows her child to sit on her lap in the car rather than insisting he goes in his car seat is utterly abdicating her responsibilities as a parent!! I hope she changes her attitudes before something really bad happens to her child.

I do still think that the other nursery parents are at fault for not shutting the gate.