to find it incredibly irritating when in certain circles school fees are talked about as if they are a necessity, not a choice?

[emkana]

Like Emma Thomson currently on the Women programme on BBC 4, or very often in the "Style" section of the Sunday Times.

"people who actually don't have a choice are the people who coud never afford private school fees in the first place"

Yes.

stealthsquiggle - acrylic!?

nickname, is there an official mumsnet place where can confirm that figure of 50%?

I feel sort of outside this debate, as for sure, if ds has been NT and thriving, or even still with SN and thriving, I would never have put him in a private school. I firmly believe that a bright child with the right support will do well academically, and for be that is doing a degree.

The hysteria and entrenchment of social division that accompanies some parents attitudes towards state schools is distastefu (and I dont mean on this thread at all)l. If I and all my friends managed to get degrees (from Oxbridge 'down') then I see no reason for most children to do likewise in a state school.

My ambitions for ds is simply for him to find a way through the system to develop skills and talents that will mean he lives an independent and fulfilled life. At this point in time paying for his education provides that. Later on we will see.

I know, ABD, shocking isn't it (literally, when they have been in the tumble drier ) but since it is worn over a cotton polo-neck it's really not an issue - DS's uniform is smartish, intensely practical and hard wearing (all DS's is second hand and will be fine for at least another 2 children after him) - who would have thought it? After all, us parents who choose to send their DC to independent schools are made of money, aren't we?

Always on these threads there seems to be a general sense of agreement "of course if we lived in London then we'd have no choice but to privately educate". Can I just ask - what is so wrong, or has gone so wrong with schools in London? And are the numbers of people opting for private school making the problem worse or better? That's an honest (if probably rather naive) question. Because if it's generally accepted that the state schools in our capital city have got so bad that no right-thinking parent would let their child go near them unless they had no other choice, that really is a big problem.

TTM - "if he does even scrape an E I will dance round the kitchen naked, shaking champagne and shouting RESULT" - have you told him this - only I feel it may not quite be the motivation he needs

It's amazing how gifted everyone's children are - no average ones at all.

oh I assure you skihorse, my ds is very average. Especially with dyspraxia and dyslexia sabotaging him at every academic turn.

Bramshott - there are some pretty dire state schools in London, as there are in the rest of the country. But I think people's perception of state secondary education in London is skewed, as is their perception of the dangers on the streets. Its just like living anywhere else, 99.9% of the time .

My children will go through the whole state system in London because I do not want to move out to the sticks or the home counties or anywhere else for that matter. I am very happy where I live. I kind of wish there were grammar schools around here (as I have 1 high achieving child, not sure how the youngest is going to do at school yet) but yet at the same time would hate to go through the pressure and stress involved in the current "grammar" system. So my dd and most if not all of her friends are going to have to tough it out in the secondary system. I think they will be fine.

necessity?If you are living on a teacher's salary [for example] in almost any 'nice' area and have a mortgage and 2dc then the nesessities are food,clothing,the mortgage etc NOT f***g school fees which as as far out of reach as a holiday home in the Azores and an indoor swimming pool.

Bramshott; I used to teach in East London, near Stratford at a large, very multi-cultural primary. I was considering what I would do with my dc (who wasn't born, but I was thinking about it). That Primary School was really wonderful; a really happy community, and I spent some great years there. I would not only have no problem with my dc going there, I would be delighted.

But the secondary school closest to where I lived was the one that Philip Lawrence got stabbed. I found that terrifying. The other school in London that I know is the Foundation School for Boys, in East London. I have known a couple of people who have worked there. Pupils stole teacher's bags and boasted about it, by letting the teacher know that they knew her birthday. A fight in the classroom ended with her calling an ambulance from the classroom. Awful.

I don't know much about it but it seems that the people who get stabbed are usually innocents like Brooke Kinsella's brother.

Skilhorse; there was a survey of parents about whether or not they wanted a grammar school. The majority of parents did want a grammar school because the majority of parents thought their kids would get in.

It's like the fact that most people think they are better than average drivers.

I think the reason that lots of prep school fees in London are not like a house in the Azores or a swimming pool is that they are actually less than day nursery fees (even part time day nursery fees) - once you can find nursery fees for one child then you get used to not having that money and it just carries on and turns into school fees instead.

Granted this doesnt work with 2 dcs.

meh for some people they are a necessity and something they plan for, and for others they're not. No big deal and they probaby find it just as irritating that everytime they happen to mention what school their child goes to or the school fees they are treated to alecture about how they should be supporting the state school system. Swings and roundabouts really.

tripoli

Watching from the sidelines as we're lucky enough to live in a 'nice' area with good primary and reasonable (but normal, not outstanding) secondary school.

I did think about my dd & private education as I wanted her to have the best opportunities in life. (I'm from a sink council estate and scrambled my way through school with a reasonable education but no degree).

DH said he hated the idea, ideologically and for the practical reasons of her being the poor kid in the rich kids playground (overexaggeration on his part, I know, but he was sweeping with broad strokes at the time).

I could have worked full time and that would have paid for the fees, no question. We aren't rich, but we were lucky to have that choice. I chose not to do it but can't deny I was tempted. And that's in an area with reasonable schools.

I agree that many parents don't have the choice. I know that some people have great jobs and have worked hard to get them, but a lot of the time they've had a great education behind them too. Not everyone has that back-up and support, so implying that people who can't afford private education should work smarter instead of harder and should have started earlier isn't really on.

I know families who have done their best and are still only just manage to keep their families housed and fed. How they should have the 'choice' of private education is beyond me. But maybe that's because I come from a background where money was tight to the degree where it impacted on whether or not there was meat on the table.

Isn't the reason for the desperation down to social networking. Knowing the right people? That was the case in my family.

I know some people do it for exceptional special needs (including being gifted), but an awful lot of people see it as absolutely necessary to get in with the right crowd?

I would be totally clueless as to who the 'right people' were!

I'm sure if we were doing a list of essential expenditure then school fees would be on it.
But that would be our list, based on our circumstances.

That doesn't mean I think a private education is essential in the way that oxygen is.

Once your DC are in private schools, the fees are a necessity, and obviously whatever financial difficulties you are in, no-one wants to have to move their child mid GCSE, for example

I would never have choen a private school, but our local cmp is appalling, nearest next half decent one involves an hours bus journey each way and the Grammar is seriously over-subscribed so even all children attainin top marks in the entrance exams (no 11 plus in Northern Ireland) did not get in. So, an option for us was a private/boarding school and it was the one my son chose. We are lucky that my husband is in the army and so they pay a proportion of the fees for us, but we do have to find the rest and the 'extras' and the unfirom etc is expensive. We aren't especially well off,but for us now the fees are a necessity, not least as if we decide to move DS or take him out, we are likely to have to pay back all school fees so far.

The 'right' people are the ones with influential parents and second homes in good places, for example, the alps. How can that not be straightforward, Grimma?

I used to know someone whose stepfather was in the cabinet at the time and, boy, was she popular, people wanted to get to know her in order to become a family friend, in order to get a reference from a member of the cabinet.

Balliol, of course you can't coach any child through the 11+. It's a competative thing - if 10% pass and 15% are being coached for it, then a third of them will fail. Whether or not the right third fail is moot.

And if you could, why on earth are you so in favour of grammar schools? If all (or most) children have enough intellect to pass, then why bother creaming off the ones that have been coached - better to send all to a comprehensive really.

I do feel a bit guilty that I can afford things that others can't (not just education), but I also believe in choice - of where to live, holidays to take, type of house & car, extra curricular things, as well as of schools.

All these things are only choices for those that can afford them (so polo lessons aren't an option for all, & neither is driving an aston martin), but unless we move to a communist society I don't see a way around that. Even in a truely communist society you still won't get equality of education for all children, as so much depends on the home environment.

As it is, private schools are a bit of a motivator to raise the standards of state schools so are arguably good in that respect.
The best way forward is to work to raise the standards of all schools, with the focus on the lowest ones as seems to be happening, though it has a long way to go.

Tripoli social networking would be a seriously screwy reason for anyone to put their DC into private schools, IMO. Quite apart from anything else, friends from Uni are far more likely to be friends and "contacts" for life than those from school.

Of course, it could be just because I am no good at it that I take that view - I knew plenty of extremely well off/well connected/both people at Uni and spectacularly failed to cultivate or even stay in contact with any of them.

"Isn't the reason for the desperation down to social networking. Knowing the right people? That was the case in my family.

I know some people do it for exceptional special needs (including being gifted), but an awful lot of people see it as absolutely necessary to get in with the right crowd? "

well that had absolutely nothing to do with my choices. I would n't know who theright crowd were at the Dcs schools. So maybe I am the right crowd? Am I the person other people want to mix with? Am I big enough to be a crowd on my own? If not, I haven't been taking enough care over who I mix with Hmmm, perhaps they mix with me because they think I might know who the right crowd are? Perhaps they know who the right crowd are but are deliberately disrtracting me from them - or them from me?

God its confusing

Stealth, I stand by my assertion that it has a lot to do with meeting the right people. The fact that you failed to cultivate the right people doesn't alter that.

Why did applications to St Andrew's, Bristol and Newcastle go up because of William, Chelsy Davy and P Eugenie?

Pony club - same.