to find it incredibly irritating when in certain circles school fees are talked about as if they are a necessity, not a choice?

[emkana]

Like Emma Thomson currently on the Women programme on BBC 4, or very often in the "Style" section of the Sunday Times.

It's hara-kiri, BOF...
Also, Madme..., just because you are sending your child to a private school for couple of years does not make you a spokesperson for all the families who have chosen private education.
Neither are you asked to moderate this thread, posters are free to post when and how they choose, it's irrelevant what you think of it.

touche, capot and repiqued, egad!

There there, don't take it to heart, Madame.... iz called freedom of speech...

"I work hard", that old chestnut again.

yes yes love that one

we are just incredibly lazy in this lazy, only reason we can't send the dc's to private school...

in this family

Rollmops, to be fair to BelleDeChocolateFluffyBunny, she was only disagreeing with my original point about necessity and choice. Everyone was saying that a roof over one's head was a necessity, and I said that it isn't a necessity, because some tramps choose not to have that. It was an attempt to show that the definition of necessity is difficult because one person's necessity can be another person's choice.

Just to open up the can of worms again. Necessity was being used in a restrictive life and death sense. But necessity can also be applied in the following way. To achieve a certain objective, it is a necessity to perform certain actions. For example to become a world class violin player, it is a necessity to practise for hours per day. In a similar way, if it turns out that all of the local state schools are crap, then in order to get a good education it is a necessity to pay for school fees.

with the proviso that the private school can provide a quality education

Well said lil and squiby, saves me posting as you echo my sentiments exactely, ds loves his school and its worth every sacrifice we make to send him there

Are you all being deliberately obtuse? Have we spent pages and pages of posts pointing out that the majority of people simply cannot afford private schools? WHATEVER economies they make?

Try for a little intellectual rigour please.

The fact is, Emkana is describing a sector of society that would NEVER use state school, even if they had the best performing one in the country on their doorstep. Because as far as they are concerned they are in the business of maintaining a social apartheid of privilege and opportunity for their children.

And the sad truth is, the rest of us private parents (and I include myself in that, despite Rollmops clear view of me as a dilettante private parent with my pick and mix attitude towards it) are not the kind of people this sector want their dcs to mix primarily with.

And that is the shocker. And that is why are society is so divided. That there is a big tranche of society that WILL NOT countenance the kind of social mix and dilution of opportunity for their dcs that the rest of us do. And together as a social group they validate and reinforce this pernicious attitude.

They consider it a necessity to maintain that division, not for educational reasons, but for social and maintenance of privilege reasons. For them it is unthinkable that there children should be educated alongside the scrimping and saving, the poor and the disenfranchised.

We live in a society where social mobility has atrophied in the last 20 years. This is bad for all of us, it is a waste of our intellectual resources, and simply serves to intrench and perpetuate a society of deep social inequality.

And Rollmops right back at ya regarding everyone being able to say what they like. There is also absolutely no need for a sneaky dig at me either. If I pay for private eduation I am as qualified as anyone else to discuss the issue from that perspective, but clearly you feel otherwise because I have not exhibited the lifelong commitment to private education you feel you have.

And do strive for some consistency. On the one hand you said necessity was a relative term, and on the other stated that private education was not a necessity. All on one post.

Madame, there have been couple of rather large scale social experiments over the past century that tried to build a society where all were equal - to a grand conclusion that more inhuman and horrifying system than Socialism is hard to find.
As for my inconsistency, you are right, I should have been clear that until a universally accepted definition of 'necessity' is coined, private education, mortgage, car etc. are all choices. The minimum that we need to live is food, water, air and shelter of some kind. The basics. Everything else is a choice.

well indeed, you are so right. The abject failure of communism is a clear sign that socially divisive education is a goal for us all.

and I think you are being intellectually lazy or ignorant to conflate soialism with communism.

Yes there is a small percentage of people who wouldn't even begin to consider sending their children to state schools.

But look, the percentage of children at private schools is around 7%. Of that seven percent, only a tiny percentage are of the mindset that they would never, not ever, not in a million years, send their children to a state school. Say it's 10% of those at private school. And that's a pretty generous estimate.

On that basis, we're talking about 0.7% at most of the population. So I reckon you are getting into a lather over not very much.

How can a private education be described as a necessity when only 7% of the population uses it?

93% of children in education do not have access to this "necessity".

I am not sure which Government department it is that does this, but there is a list of basic family necessities used to guage the poverty line in Britian (I think there has been controversy over it because it includes things like televisions) - am quite certain that school fees are not included in that particular family basket.

This thread in itself is an education in wilful obtuseness.

Have only read the OP, but...

Yaawn, Madame...
Socialism and communism are alike in that both are systems of production for use based on public ownership of the means of production and centralized planning. Socialism grows directly out of capitalism; it is the first form of the new society. Communism is a further development or "higher stage" of socialism.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds (socialism). From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs (communism)...etc.

Quattro, thank you for having actually engaging in what I said. I despair when everything I say is swept aside with nonsense like socialism is a hideous evil...

Quite frankly, as bibbity said, but much more politely, its like pissing in the wind with some folk.

Good manners, however, cost nothing.

Before spouting your 'knowledge'(amongst other things), do get your facts straight, comrade.
Anyhoo, the smell of urine is getting overpowering around here, strong winds and all, off to capitalist pastures.
Enjoy yourselves!

Well, Madame, if they are free, do try and aquire some.....

How "hard" people work is irrelevant.

There are hard-working people sending their children to state school because they cannot afford private school, just as there are lazy gits living off trust funds and paying the private school fees out of them.

I wouldn't presume to describe either group as representative or typical.

Why are you being so rude?

MadameD- I'm pleased to see that you recovered from your fatal stab wound!

I agree with most of your sentiments and particularly agree with this quote below:

'We live in a society where social mobility has atrophied in the last 20 years. This is bad for all of us, it is a waste of our intellectual resources, and simply serves to intrench and perpetuate a society of deep social inequality.'

It is a shame that the occasional poster finds it necessary to make digs/ use sarcasm, etc to make their point.
The is a large difference between making the above statement and making references to communism, etc

There is also a world of difference between necessity in terms of food, drink, a room over one's head, etc and something being a 'necessity' in order to achieve another aim/ desire.
Admittedly, there may well be children who feel happier at a private school, with smaller class sizes, etc but that does not make private education a necessity, merely desirable, which I think was the OP's original point.