to find it incredibly irritating when in certain circles school fees are talked about as if they are a necessity, not a choice?

[emkana]

Like Emma Thomson currently on the Women programme on BBC 4, or very often in the "Style" section of the Sunday Times.

Balliol, no I don't mean topping up at home to mean I do lots of educational stuff with my kids. I mean I topped up my OWN education at home by reading books and stuff, because I was genuinely into learning and getting myself educated. That's how I went to a fairly bog std comp and thence to Cambridge.
I think a lot of spoonfeeding from parents doesn't do kids much good, so I don't do a heck of a lot with mine, beyond reading a story to them every night and (hopefully) fairly interesting conversations at mealtimes etc.
I had a lot of contemporary friends of mine when I was a kid who were going through the private system. They were really dazzling in their teens, very self assured and polished. But many haven't done that brilliantly in later life, make of that what you will...

Balliol - yes you're right up to a point about the class/money thing I think - except that it really is about class when you consider the limitations on social mobility in the UK (it is less now than since the 1950s according to many economic analyses) which indicates that those 'buying' into social elites are by far in the minority.
Private education fundamentally entrenches social inequality IMHO and so I want no part of it. But I know my views are probably extreme compared to the majority.

Kitty I agree with you, not an extreme view at all! Is clearly common sense, surely!

The public schoools tend to be incredibly regimented from what I gather, the children are allowed little free time so they are less home sick but are skirted from one activity to another and get use to being told it's time to eat/swim/study. I can't see this as a useful skill in real life to be honest.

Nonsense

oh yes, that did make me cross! despite the fame moment!

and re brave.

TT, By topping up I suppose I mean everything from having conversations over meals to going to see Twelth Night at Stratford to piano lessons to being able to answer the question, 'Daddy, why are there stars?' and get a thoughtful answer.

I am bending over backwards not to put pressure on dc. Have seen too many dcs suffer from the stress of ambitious parents. I have only really realised the pressure to get to a so-called RG university as a parent. Russell Group? Is that the new name for oxbridge failures? I assume it means Exeter, Bristol, York, etc.

What I can't stand are parents who allege they are doing the state system a favour by privately educating the dcs.

I know of a suicide of a young person who would/should have been anything, but couldn't cope with the pressure and his suicide note made that clear.

Oh dear - it's late and I can't tell who's replying to who on this thread and it's such an emotive topic - I'm outta here, night night.

"What I can't stand are parents who allege they are doing the state system a favour by privately educating the dcs."

I'd like a bit more reasoned argument here please. That comment is no advert for state education.

It is a FACT that the 7% of parents who use private education are saving the state sector money.

It may also be true that they are doing the state sector some favours by taking their children out of the system for other reasons, of course

Belle, he sounds wonderful. Surely having the internet means he can do anything. Look at him from the point of view of an oxvridge admissions tutor; that's the sort they want.

He should be in a Grammar School.

Kitty, yes to social immobility. I have changed my mind about Grammar Schools because they did provide that.

Do you get my point about privately educated parents claiming they are helping the state by not taking a place?

The next few years will be interesting once the cuts bite hard. The newly hard up will flood the state system.

Just when the state system will be cutting back. teaching jobs will be gold dust and most teachers trained in the last ten years have come to rely on classroom assistants just as they are being cut to the bone.

Thank goodness for the BBC website. If that had been around when I was a boy there would have been no reason to go to school.

The only grammar school here is private Balliol, it's not a patch on the one he's moving to in Septmember. He tends to play games on facebook when he's on the laptop, he's not a natural student IYSWIM, he just picks things up really, really quickly. He makes life interesting, I've taken him to London a couple of times, he stood and critiqued the van gough's in the national gallery which was funny interesting, he was 6, didn't think the perspective on the chair was right, then wanted to discuss social structure and what makes a society the way it is on the way home. I think he's ace, he doesn't see himself as a child though so finds the relationships with adults really difficult.

I don't mean going to a Russell group uni is a failure, but if your parents spent the cost of a house on your education you wouldn't want to end up in Exeter.

How did Prince Harry only get 2 A levels?

I am not a teacher but I have coached children through 11+ BECAUSE it is not that difficult. I'd say you could coach any 10 year old through the 11+ and the ones who were uncoachable would be more interested in art or sport or mechanics or something.

I haven't even looked at the 11+ thread but I saw it mentioned in aibu or chat. What on earth can they find to be so excercised about? It is a very simple thing, surely the parents can do the sums/problems? It's a matter of practice and confidence. To give it any other thought is to underestimate the child. I am now loathe to go and look on education and suddenly find it is, in fact, difficult.

I think every child has a gift for something but for some it takes them a while to find it. Prince Harry doesn't have a gift for designing costumes though.

Most academic things can be taught and (art, mechanics and sport) are more of a gift, which needs special nurturing because they are the creative ones. I feel as though I am being sarcastic, but I'm not. If a dc had a talent for ballet, or football, or music that was spotted at an early age, I would (perhaps) feel I had to pull out every stop. But not for something as teachable as maths fgs.

Could I open a thread on gap years or is there a special place on mn for that?

I cross posted Belle

There's no specific place for gap years.

Ds has a gift for academics, I remember teaching him to read, it took 2 minutes. You don't think it's not normal if it's your only child. Every parent should want to nurture their child's gift, it's harder if it's academic though as it can be difficult to find the right school for the child. Even maths is a gift, the logic behind it can be difficult to grasp so when a child can pick the concepts up really quickly and apply them to other areas he can be difficult to keep up with (if this makes sense, I should get off to bed as I'm rambling! )

"I'd say you could coach any 10 year old through the 11+ and the ones who were uncoachable would be more interested in art or sport or mechanics or something."

I'm a teacher, my 10 year old son is an 11+ 'failure' who will be going to the local comp.

He's not interested in art, sport or mechanics. He likes maths and science and is actually very good at both subjects and has been working at NC Level 5 since Year 5.

By your logic I should be writing him off academically at the moment.

Balliol, not every child can be coached through 11+. Some are simply not clever enough to do the questions in the time allowed - you have to be reasonably quick. Some just don't 'get' the NVR/VR type questions. Even in English and maths - I had an extremely bright friend at uni, doing law, she simply had a blind spot for maths, had flunked even CSE (it being a long time ago). Conversely I had a colleague who was extraordinarily mathematically gifted, wrote the most brilliant scientific algorithms, who was dyslexic and had nearly been written off by the education system because he couldn't string a sentence together. No way could he have passed the 11+.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything else on this thread but its just not true that any child is capable of passing 11+ with tutoring.

Social mobility needs more than education. As I understand it, there was a massive expansion in office-based/professional work between the 40s and the 60s, providing convenient slots for lots of socially mobile children. That expansion couldn't continue indefinitely.

You can see the expansion in 'A Matter of Life and Death' which shows heaven to be an office full of clerks with a perfectly heavenly filing system

Balliol,
Prince Harry has genuine special needs academically, as far as I understand it. in which case 2 A levels is pretty good result.
Not all kids can be coached through 11 plus, what if they have dyslexia, dyspraxia or are just, well, low IQ?
What are your kids doing schoolwise, you may have said but I've missed it if so? We have six (some are dh's from first wife who died, so I've brought them all up). The older four are in their late teens / early 20s and we have every range from the A* student who got a first at uni to slacker stoner who doesn't care. Is only so much you can do, at the end of the day it comes down to the kids' characters and personal motivation. We have put 100 times more effort into Slacker Stoner Boy than we ever did into Miss A Grade. And still it will be a miracle if he passes a single A level. In fact if he does even scrape an E I will dance round the kitchen naked, shaking champagne and shouting RESULT. For all that, he is a really nice guy and I feel sure he wil come up smelling of roses eventually.

Nationally 7% of school age children attend private schools and 50% of Mumsnetters children... let's get some perspective people!