to wish that one day, being prejudice against a breastfeeding mum will be the same as being prejudice against race, religion, sexuality, disability etc.?

[eggontoast]

Luckily, we have adopted laws in this country to prevent many kinds of discrimination. Unfortunately, it does not always work, but it does offer some degree of protection for those concerned. (OK, it may not stop people feeling racist for example, but they will put on a front, better than nothing I suppose. And, it does not stop everyone, I know, but at least they are taken to account for their actions (when caught).

I just feel that I, and others like me, are completely fair game to those who oppose bf so strongly that they will kick you out of their cafe, or off the bus they are driving.

To me, it is similar, not the same of course, as being able to ask someone to leave their bus or cafe because they are black or a lesbian.

I think there maybe something in the pipeline, but it just seems so far away.

can't really argue with any of that Babieseverywhere . very measured!

and yes a debate about the ethics of formula companies would be interesting. maybe i'll try and think of a good title, although tbh i think mners are well bored of it!

i still can't help but think we've got infant feeding wrong in this country due to massive use of formula which even the companies say is for emergency use only (even though they are more than happy to take the money ) and therefore part of me can TOTALLY see where wormwood is coming from.

I do see where Wormwood comes from too and her desire to support breastfeeding mothers is a worthy goal

I just think that we should all strive not to provoke or upset other posters if this can be avoided. Her posts and choice of phrases were very emotive and anti-formula in attitude.

There are a few posters who do post as an expert, like Tiktok (NCT BFC) and Mears (Midwife) and a few others. These posters are very clear about their background and current expertise levels.

I don't feel it is appropriate to hint that you are an expert and imply in your posts that you should be listened to, on that basis. Then refuse to expand on what you do for whom. Just confuses everyone, that said I am easily confused.

Anyhow I'm off now, I'll have a look later for your other thread, Ruby.

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While I believe that breast feeding should be covered by the Equality Act, I also believe that class should be included in the Equality Act. Wormwood, the way you address people who you consider to be less educated than yourself is disgusting.

WORMWOOD

if all of Le Leche Leage are like you I will avoid in the future, what a nasty, patronising and vicious post, shocking

I have said some harsh things on this thread too, but I remain open to feedback and to rethinking my attitude

are you?

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hi wormwood - what role? what, a mum?

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back up soldier! i'm gonna have to read your post again, i don't get half of it!

x post!

oh - was totally flummoxed there - wa going to reread with interest!

Hmm

I think it should be covered by gender discrimination tbh

It isn't on a parallel with disability discrimination / racism etc- it doesn't have the hate history behind it for a start (no genocides or mass locking up of people) but also breastfeeding mums are able to defend themselves unlike some disabled people, and have amde a choice.

Which doesn't mean it is OK or shouldn't be illegal (I am an extended BF myself with my 23 month old) but three's a world of difference between leave this cre which after all is about as bad as it can get on a normal level, and you may not work for us / have a house / I will thump tweo barrels out of you which happens in other minorities and is soemthing my as ds1 has faced

Wormwood I am hoping your approach ehre is reserved for anon boards becuase if a volunteer I managed spoke our famillies like thatb tthey'd be out forthwith.

And people less educated than you or less coailly aware are not inferior, they are different. Am I sensing more than a touch of bigotry there perhaps?.....

I am not a LLL Counsellor, I did take the Unicef BFI course many years ago via the charity I worked for (The MWs there persuaded me to try for ds3 and he's now 6, so erm....) and we were never ever allowed to talk down to anyone becuase of their choices, and wouldn't want to either. It is a choice into which a great many factors feed, we support it whewre that is needed and back off and allow women the decent respect to make decisions for themselves if not.

I am not a representative for LLL on here, I am just a nursing mum and I mentioned my voluntary role once at your request, hardly a sign of being hung up with it.

No idea what you mean by a 'right way', the comments I have made on this thread are my personal opinions as a nursing mother. Every mother makes her own choices and decisions based on her baby and family situation. How could any one way be a 'right way' I have no idea, maybe you could explain.

"Training is not about indoctrinating everyone to feel a certain way about every issue to do with BF or wiping out one's personal views and prejudices altogether."
Totally agree. Maybe you could try to demonstrate this in your own posts and attitudes ?

"You seem to want to have the last word every time whilst paying lip service to the greatness of other (absent) posters now and again."
I am posting on a debate board, the act of posting does not imply I wanted the last word, far from it. My respect for Tiktok is far from lip service, I have learnt a great deal from her posts and her research links. If you wish to find her she reads and posts on the Breast and Bottle feeding board.

"I think that you are tougher and more judgemental than you are prepared to admit." I can be judgemental, certainly I have a strong impression about you. However I try not to let my judgments affect how I post. For example. I am responding to your post giving you the same courtesy, as I would if a polite person was posting.

So far you have shown your judgemental attitude towards formula use, education levels and class...is that the limit of your prejudices or do you want to add a few more ?

Can I just back up BE about tiktok by adding that she enabled me to feed my DS4 when every helpline going and a fair few otehr people had failed.

She does indeed give excellent advice on here for mums struggling with BF (for me it turned out to be an intolerance to casein passing into my milk)

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Wormwood why are you being so vindictive?

Where exactly has Babies been sneaky and nasty? All her posts on this thread are extremely balanced,patient and informative unlike errr yours which are full of vitriol-why? Reeeeelly think you need to chill a bit.

Babies just wanted to say that it's very refreshing to read such balanced posts on this subject. Have to say as a struggling bf then a ff if I'd come across somebody such as yourself at the time who knows I might of managed it a bit longer. Many thanks for your posts,the info you've posted will I'm sure encourage more mums to approach the LLL. I never did post birth with all 3 as I just assumed I'd get judged,nobody would listen to how awful it was and I'd be made to feel small for being so crap at bf.

Very interesting about the LLL training I do think they could do with a marketing campaign,create a more friendly accessible image. All I had at the time was a scrawled down telephone number the first time then a washed out old fashioned leaflet I think the second. This was 5 years ago so things may well have moved on since. The title puts you off ringing too,still have no idea what LLL actually means.

MilaMae,
Thanks for your nice comments
I am sorry to hear that you experienced difficulties when establishing feeding your children.

Thank you for sharing your experiences on this thread, especially as I realise it couldn't be easy to write. It is very helpful for Wormwood to read how upsetting her comments are to real mothers like you. I hope in reading your responses, that this will help her think more before posting, especially when the issues are so emotive.

TBH I don't know much about the LLL I go to their monthly meetings maybe 3 times a year. I would go more often but dragging 2 children and a bump 30 miles for a coffee morning is a bit much at times. I like the group as they are very understanding of extending nursing, tandem nursing and nursing during pregnancy, co sleeping etc.

The peer support course just happened to be run by the LLL for our local mums group who aim to support nursing mums. This group has no affiliation with any of the major charities.

But weekly I am more involved volunteering and training with my local NCT group, they have shown me the need to be less judgemental and more balanced especially around formula. They really opened my eyes to how much wider and complicated the issue of support is than simply 'trying'. So if I was asked I would say I was an NCT member first, then an LLL member. But there is no limit on the number of charities you can be involved with. If I had the money I would join the ABN and BfN as well

It is clear that Wormwood has her own agenda. She has only been posting on Mumsnet for a handful of days and mainly on this thread. If genuine she needs a lot of understanding, it is difficult to hold on to so much anger and feel you can only respond (even when it is words on the screen) to everyone in such a negative and insulting way. If not genuine she will lose interest and wander off in a few weeks. Either way I couldn't let other posters feel that her attitude is the result of the LLL !

Wormwood

I was hoping to have a bit of debate about what you do and why. Maybe look into why you feel so strongly about formula.

However it appears from your past posts on this thread, that you are not here to share information or debate or to learn anything.

Which leads me to think you are posting purely to upset the other posters, am I right ?

Wormwood OR SHOULD I SAY WashWithCare????? I think so!

As I said before we are refreshed and challenged by your unique points of view of this thread you may be more eloquent in your writing abilities dear, however I am straight to the point, it was you who is and is continuing to insult my intelligence by your continual mindless insults, I called you a pleb, as simply you are one, a very common and mindless figure in thinking this way towards "powdered shit"!

I called you a idiot, see reasons above, I called you pathetic, as too me, your continual bashing of myself is that! pathetic!

You will never understand even the basic concept of the severity of my sons allergies, it as only last week where he went into anaphylactic shock as he TOUCHED A LIME! But Ive already been through this with you, haven't I, time and time again, we will always go back to this point, as your tiny little mind will never be able to grasp the severity of his allergies.

Just because you believe you have a sharp tongue, does not mean you have a Sharp mind, Brains aren't everything, and in fact in your case they are nothing! But Im also glad to see your not letting your intelligence get in the way of your ignorance!

At this moment in time, I simply cannot be bothered to sit and go through this again, My cousin died yesterday, and my families coming down today to send her on her finial farewell!

Ive only just read the latter of your post!

Firstly Its LittleMRS,

what si it with the education insults, seriously your a no brainier! and its a no brainier!

Just because your stress abilities, means you can write a coherent sentence, if only were were all thew same

My writing skills are not up to par with most, I have never denied this, but having a learning disability does do this, and stress makes it even worse!

Oh and Im sorry, where is YOUR debating on this thread? oops YES that's right, you haven't, your here to cause anguish and nothing more

LittleMrsHappy, You do not have to explain anything about how you write or feed your children.

Outside Wormwood, no one else has any difficulty understanding what you say or mean. It does not matter how your sentence structure reads, gosh my spelling and grammar is extremely dodgy and I am generally understood

I am guessing from what you said earlier that your son has an allergy which prevents him breastfeeding. I was interested in his diagnosis ? My friend has a beautiful baby boy who has either an lactose intolerance or cow milk intolerance (I know there is a difference I am just not sure which it is in his case) and he is prescribed soy formula and sees a dietitian regularly. That said whilst I wrote this post, I see you have also mention an allergy to a lime, does he have more than one allergy ?

It does not matter if Wormwood disbelieves your story, the majority of posters and lurkers will understand there you are coming from. Do you expect someone with Wormwood's attitude to understand that for many women there is no choice on what to feed their babies either for medical reasons, cultural pressures or lack of unjudgemental support.

Please do not let Wormwood upset you, there are many people who value your posts here. I suspect the name calling and insults are intended only to get an reaction.

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LittleMrs about your cousin.

I hope today passes smoothly for you X

'I maintain that in my personal opinion, formula is equivalent to "powdered shit"'

Thank you for posting this. Of course you are entitled to hold any personal opinion you wish to, however narrow minded.

Now you have made it clear to the readers and lurkers on this thread that your attitude to formula has no connection to the LLL or the LLL training, just a personal attitude.

Thank you, I am happy