to wish that one day, being prejudice against a breastfeeding mum will be the same as being prejudice against race, religion, sexuality, disability etc.?

[eggontoast]

Luckily, we have adopted laws in this country to prevent many kinds of discrimination. Unfortunately, it does not always work, but it does offer some degree of protection for those concerned. (OK, it may not stop people feeling racist for example, but they will put on a front, better than nothing I suppose. And, it does not stop everyone, I know, but at least they are taken to account for their actions (when caught).

I just feel that I, and others like me, are completely fair game to those who oppose bf so strongly that they will kick you out of their cafe, or off the bus they are driving.

To me, it is similar, not the same of course, as being able to ask someone to leave their bus or cafe because they are black or a lesbian.

I think there maybe something in the pipeline, but it just seems so far away.

Wormwood, I am glad to hear you are more diplomatic in face-to-face situation.

Yes, there have been several silly suggestions about what a breastfeeding mother 'should' do in order to avoid prejudice in public. But calling formula feeding mothers and the product they use hardly helps anybody does it ?

I can't see how feeding a friend's baby made you feel that it is appropriate to call formula "powdered shit". Did you mention to your friend that you feel this way ? It does seems very extreme to have just a strong reaction to have to a dried milk powder. I wonder why you feel this strongly ?

This thread has not been hijacked by anyone. There are a variety of women exchanging ideas and debating a subject. Several people including myself haven't mentioned how they feed their own babies, so how you are claiming to identify members of an "FF brigade" I have no idea. I wouldn't know how to place several posters despite being on these boards for a few years

May I ask about your LLL training, as you said you "managed to convince mothers to carry on [breastfeeding]" are you a LLL trained peer supporter are you supervised when you give support ?

It is interesting that you feel you are not lacking in breastfeeding knowledge. Do you feel there is anything more you would benefit in learning more about in this area ?

"The FF brigade with their usual 'what about us'?"

What exactly is that supposed to mean??????

Oh I get it- LOON ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!

Wormwood your posts have illustrated beautifully why the op was a huge storm in a tea cup- seems to be far more prejudice towards ff thus making this entire thread extremely pointless.

OK the above was in English but I am educated (1st in BA (honours) ) to know this

I do formula feed, however not through choice, with ds2, did BF with ds1!

Why would I post personal information about my DC to a Internet public forum, Rather silly and mindless thing to do so isn't it!

so I will say this is short words for you, your a idiot! {grin}

Just to go back to the OP, you are being unreasonable, I'm afraid.

In my part of the world (North London) there is a lot of negativity directed at formula feeding mothers.

However neither this, nor discrimination against breastfeeding, is in any way comparable to racism or homophobia and makes me think you need a quick history lesson.

I love mumsnet in many ways, but I'm afraid this whole discussion does make me think 'only on mumsnet etc...'

Haven't read all the thread but I have seen a few comments that have irritated me in their reference to choice (a word that gets bandied about to often imo!) and how bf needs to be done discreetly!! Why do I have to bf discretely and at the same time be faced with bare breasts in lads mags and newspapers? That may be sexism rather than direct disrimination against breast feeding but the effect is a backwards society that makes me feel uncomfortable feeding my 17 m old daughter in a public place (even a toddler group fgs!) - I am not saying I expose myself deliberately and militantly to make a point - just that I should not feel judged for using breasts for what should be their primary function.

I don't think feeding is a 'choice' - you have to give a baby milk and if you can't breastfeed for whatever reason then you formula feed and you should not feel awkward doing either. Choice is about wether I wear my brown boots or my black boots when I go out - feeding a baby is a necessity and the method is obvious breastfeed unless you can't (and their are a multitude of reasons a woman can't breastfeed but it is not a casual choice).

bigmouth, I think you make a very fair comment. certainally recent threads of this ilk have really made me think about how I will handle BF next time around. hands up I am a very uncomfortable public b-fedder and this thread and others have made me rethink this attitude

But wormwood.I do think the MIND example was misguided, sorry but I do. she went into private property and used a space for changing outfits for something completely different, so unfortunately she ran the risk of pissing someone off. and then made a big hoo ha to the papers about it. I think the air freshener man was an even bigger twat.but the mum did not do herself any favours IMO

I don't think prejudice against women who formula feed should be acceptable either. It is still sexism - society believing it can tell women what they should or should not do with their own bodies. If women choose not to breastfeed, it is their choice and should not be respected.

I hope that nobody on this thread would argue that a woman feeding a baby formula should be made to leave a shop or have air freshener sprayed around her or told that 'formula milk stinks.' It is nasty when women look down their noses at a woman bottle feeding and make her uncomfortable, and I am sure some women have had that experience.

Sexism is a serious prejudice - people have been murdered because they are women and suffer many injustices globally. We do have a relatively easy time in Britain, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take these issues seriously. It is true that women are not put in camps for breast feeding in this country, but then people are not rounded up based on ethnicity and put in death camps in this country either. In other countries, people are killed because of their ethnicity, and they are also killed or physically harmed for being women who break some kind of modesty code. Most people in this country who have an issue with public breast feeding base it on modesty (flaunting it, not being discreet and son on). In this country we should not be condoning racism or sexism.

Wormwood - I am a BFing mother and very pro BFing.However I would never judge anyone for FFing - it is none of my business or concern how other women feed their babies.

It upsets and concerns me that someone as angry and prejudiced as you towards formula is allowed anywhere near new mothers to be honest. Your attitude is not normal or healthy and I hope you have not made some poor mother struggling to BF suffer in real life because of your unreasonable anger.

People are having a go at Wormwood about being angry, but do you know SOMEBODY's got to be angry. This woman, a human being, the type of person who shops in MIND, was feeding her totally dependent, helpless baby, in a warm and dry changing room, when she got sprayed with air freshener. That is fucking disgraceful. As if to say, piss off you stink. Like kicking a dog and saying get out. THAT is inhumane. I'm astounded that people think this is acceptable. I have never encountered such hostility, but then not everyone of a particular 'type' is affected by the prejudices / discrimination that exist towards that 'type'. It doesn't mean in isn't outrageous.

RubyBuckleberry,

Many posters are angry that the breastfeeding woman was treated so badly in the Mind shop, including me

Being angry does not excuse Wormwood's posts which have been aggressive, rude and judgemental.

but why do bfing mothers get treated like this? because formula feeding companies have succeeded in normalising formula feeding. bfing is not the norm, ff is.

A woman ffeeding her baby in a changing room would not have been treated like that because its seen as normal, surely, by that man. That is discriminatory.

The two are inextricably linked, no?

Message deleted

I am also very angry at the way the woman and her baby were treated i the charity shop,it was utterly disgusting and really upset me to hear it,after all it could have been me feeding my nine week old baby.Some of the ignorant prejudice people have towards bfing mums makes me want to weep.HOWEVER I am also angered by wormwood's nasty,superior attitude towards mums who feed their babies formula,it's people like her who do nothing to help the breastfeeding 'cause'. People should be happy with their own choices,and respect other peoples-just cannot understand the militant breastfeeders who are so concerned with other mum's feeding choices.Worry about your own baby,it's none of your business what other mothers do.

A very small number of breastfeeding mothers encounter prejudice from strangers. Yes, these problems are more likely to occur in England as breastfed babies are relatively rare and many people are unaware of the differences between bottle feeding and breastfeeding.

We do not know if a bottle feeding mum in that charity shop would of got a positive or negative reaction. I suspect it would of got another negative response, after all the intial complaint was the fact that the changing room was not for the purpose of feeding babies.

As I said in an earlier post, I think all mothers should be protected by law, so we all babies can eat when and where they need/want, regardless of feeding method.

Message deleted

Wormwood, It really is very low, to delibrately misunderstand another persons post. It is clear what LittleMissHappy was saying.

I think you missed my questions in the cross posting, so I'll re-post them on this post.
---------

May I ask about your LLL training, as you said you "managed to convince mothers to carry on [breastfeeding]" are you a LLL trained peer supporter are you supervised when you give support ?

It is interesting that you feel you are not lacking in breastfeeding knowledge. Do you feel there is anything more you would benefit in learning more about in this area ?

if mothers did not 'reach for the Cow&Gate' as wormwood put it, formula companies would not exist, and prejudice against breastfeeding mothers wouldn't either.

perhaps they are not mutually exclusive.

Message deleted

Wormwood, As you asked so nicely, I am a nursing mum interested in supporting other new mums to breastfeed.

I am a trained LLL peer supporter and volunteer with my local breastfeeding support group.

I am currently tandem nursing my 3.6 year old DD and my 18 month old DS and will continue to do so until they self wean. I am also five months pregnant with my third child, whom I hope to nurse alongside my two older children.

I feel that I have adequate knowledge of basic breastfeeding via the peer support training and an moderate amount of personal experience through mothering my own children.

However I have learnt over the last couple of years how complicated and diverse proper breastfeeding support is and now I am very aware of how little I really know. I read this site and others to help correct basic myths where I feel I know enough but mainly to learn from the real professionals. I have a lot to learn

I am genuinely interested in the answers to the questions I raised. As I said early I have no doubt you can/will help mothers but you do need to tone your attitude, else you will continue to upset and anger other people...your choice of course.

Oh wormwood, I see you've set this special time to humiliate yourself on a public forum, We are all refreshed and challenged by your unique points of view on "powdered shit", but then any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental, Im not rude, your just insignificant with your prejudice to formula feeders!

I put my degree in as that's what I have a BA hons in Social work! Which irrespectively I got a 1st for! Maybe in your small mind you dont use the (Hons) but here we do!

You go on and call me uneducated, I called you a pleb as people who use the pathetic, mindless and idiotic phrase concerning "powdered shit" is clearly uneducated and common to say that a product like "powdered shit" has saved million of babies lives elsewhere, due to people not being able to breastfeed for whatever reason, including myself!

I really dont know what your problem is concerning FF or trying to to unsuccessfully I may add, in belittling me, but I can see it must be hard for you to pronounce, clearly you are the one who is the MN idiot villager, with such extreme views on FF, after a "friend" uses it to FEED HER BABY!

Thank God Almighty I have friends who are dear friends and think Im giving my baby powered shit, which incidentally saved his life!!!!!

this was not a FF/BF bash on my part also, as I ve done both, however Im not going to sit at my kitchen table and read fuck witted views on "powdered shit" when I have no choice to use it, and hate using it, its not only breastfeeding prejudiced that hurts, it also formula, when you have to feed your baby "powered shit" through no choice of your own!!!!

Oops and sorry for the lack of coherent sentence structure, Ive had a awful night, my cousin died, I didn't finish work until 1am and also both DC have sever diarrhoea! so have had about a hours sleep!

LittleMrsHappy, Sorry to hear about your cousin and your children being ill.

I am so sorry Wormwood's posts upset you. I found them upsetting enough and it does not even directly affect me. But I knew it would affect the majority of mothers, therefore I could not say nothing.

It is hard to read posts when a poster really thinks they know best for everyone else situations. I honestly think that this lady aims to help mums at some level at the LLL coffee mornings. But sadly at the moment she is to fixed in her narrow minded opinions. No body knows everything and I worry how many ladies she has already upset in real life

If Wormwood is lurking, I will put up a final heartfelt request for her to contact her LLL Leader and talk through her issues with formula and her attitude towards woman who encounter problems breastfeeding. Everyone has the ability to learn new things, to develop and change their attitude with the right support, just give yourself the chance.

If you listen to everything the LLL Leader can tell you and educate yourself about the current issues, then see how you feel about "powdered shit" and berating women who didn't try hard enough I would be very surprised if you would feel the same way as you do now.

I truly believe your heart is in the right place. I overcame numerous problems to breastfed my first, which initially left me with a bit of a narrow minded approach towards breastfeeding but I am learning to be more open minded and if you want to learn, you could too.

If you don't want to change, learn, develop your attitude and approach to helping new mums, then I respectfully ask you to consider to stop 'helping' local real life mothers. IMO it is better a mother gets no support than receives poor judgemental 'support'.

FWIW (gets the fire extinguisher ready for inevitable flaming) I know plenty of LLLs for whom Wormwood's views would not be that outrageous, and just because she posts said views on an anonymous internet forum, shouldn't negate all the good she does in helping mums succeed in bfing. I doubt that she lets these views hurt or judge mums in the process of her work. And frankly, the sooner we accept that formula is pretty inferior instead of sugar coating the issue with 'oh, its your choice, its fine,' the sooner mums will persevere. anyway, isn't there a massive percentage of women who wished they'd carried on bfing. so aren't we doing them a massive disservice by saying things like 'if you want to give them a bottle, its fine.' shouldn't we be aiming for more of a 'gasp - no don't!!!'.

If I turned round tomorrow and said to my mum, 'mum, I can't carry on bfing, its too tiring/painful' etc the LAST thing she would encourage is formula feeding, and for that attitude, I am eternally grateful!

Thankyou babies everywhere, was quite a shock, but the DC are keeping my mind off things, until my family come tomorrow x

Ruby, formula is inferior, I have yet to see anyone dispute that, how on earth can it not be inferior when its all natural.

My BF was natural, unfortunately my sons allergies were not, and both could not go hand in hand (I always feel if I have to put a front on, FF is excellent etc... due to the connotations surrounding it, even when discussing my child's allergies on here, I was told I didn't try hard enough and just pushed a bottle in his mouth etc... and that I simply just did not understand my child allergies ) etc etc etc...

Im all for supporting BF, issues you have said above, needs to be addressed intensively by all fields in this vast area (support, education, benefits, realism of BF etc)!

what I object to it, the constant criticism of both sides, people trying to make other feel inferior, "not doing their best" etc... people who have gave up hesitantly need supporting, but so does the ones who had no choice to give up!

I LOATHE, this side of mummy hood!, why is their such a heinous divide between mothers "choice" of whatever feeding method they choose to do or NOT do.

why such hatred for something that does not have any reflection on their own life, or even any significance to it, as they went/had to go down which ever route!

Im sick to death of having the like of "it" belittling something that is keeping my son safe in my arms, and not connected to tubes and wires, due to his sever reaction to my BF (well not the milk, the "ingredients" in it)!

Its a disgusting lack of understanding empathy and abilities to understand that we are all different in our ideals!

and that sometimes our ideals have other things planned for us.

RubyBuckleberry No fire extinguisher necessary

I agree that LLL members (and I am one) can be more judgemental toward formula use than say NCT members. How ever LLL Leaders (like other trained breastfeeding counsellors) will not have this prejudice as their training will educate them to a level where they understand the wider issues. The LLL have several pages in their Answer Book on reducing or limiting top ups so formula use is something the LLL address.

I am unsure if Wormwood is either an LLL member or an LLL peer supporter, as she chooses not to clarify this point. My concern is that she may be a peer supporter, I am sure that her LLL Leader would be horrified to learn that someone had gone through the peer supporter training and still had such a strong attitude against formula.

"I doubt that she lets these views hurt or judge mums in the process of her work."
But by using the LLL name, she is 'doing her work' online and how much upset has she already created. Some of the posters or lurkers on this thread may be the same women that could seek support from the LLL. If she uses the LLL name she should stand for their values and she at the moment she doesn't.

No one would argue that there is a big difference between breastmilk and formula milk. Of course it matters what is the sole food for a babies first six months of life, which is why it is important that formula companies new ingredients should be closely monitored. It also follows that mothers should be supported in feeding how they want to and in the majority of cases this is breastfeeding at the start.

"isn't there a massive percentage of women who wished they'd carried on bfing."
Yes, there is and this is where supporters IMO should concentrate their support efforts helping the mothers who wish to breastfeed to do so.

None of this excuses being rude to or about formula or formula feeding mothers

(Of course if you want to start a new thread on the debate about the ethics of formula companies, I'll happily join in with that one)

Supporting a mothers right to choose the feeding method she wants for her baby is not the same as trying to push formula on breastfeeding mums. It is supporting the mother's choice.