to want to slap the girl on 'one born every minute'?

[HoopsIsGettingMassive]

in the title really, she is really making a meal of it!!

"'There is no other area of life where people are routinely expected to just get on with it. Would anyone be agreeing to have a tooth extraction without pain relief? A limb amputation without pain relief?"

Oh ffs - not this old turkey again!

Pain relief improves physical and psychological outcomes for major and minor surgery.

It doesn't generally improve outcomes for normal childbirth. In fact in clinical terms it tends to do the opposite, for both mother and baby.

Which is why women are sometimes encouraged to consider trying for a birth without pain relief.

It's also the case that there is not a clear link between levels of pain experienced in labour and mothers' satisfaction with their births.

In other words, comparing childbirth to an amputation is just pointless!

standanddeliver - yes, ok, childbirth is not a disease/injury and therefore we shouldn't compare them.

But take something like a baby teething (another kind of pain that is 'normal' and has a positive end). You wouldn't deny that the baby was in pain, surely even though it's a natural process? And would you medicate, or not?

We can and should compare them in terms of the level of pain experienced. Whether or not the pain has a "purpose" is a wholly different issue. It is one thing to "encourage" a woman to try to deliver without pain relief. It is quite another to imply, as many here have done, that she is somehow a lesser person because the circumstances of her particular labour made it more painful than the next woman's.

I personally think that the extreme feminist wing has a lot to answer for over this. Instead of openly admitting that women get a bloody raw deal in physical terms and have to endure things that men can only have nightmares about, instead you're all plain scared of admitting weakness. Consequently you feel the need to pedal the myth that we can all cope with this because we're "built for it". Bollocks.

Incidentally, being allowed some pain relief when I needed it would have significantly improved the psychological outcome for me. ie perhaps I wouldn't still be getting flashbacks more than 3 years later.

Ah pregnantpeppa - I didn't realise you meant that one! I don't remember it being that rude!

gaelicsheep, do you really think it's feminism that is to blame here? I'm too young to have known about 70s feminism so I may be just exposing my ignorance. But the people I've heard saying women shouldn't need pain relief in labour have mostly been very un-feminist!

I actually think that it is very sexist the way that women are made to feel guilty about not optimizing their child's life right from pregnancy onwards.

Yes, rightly or wrongly I do think the old school bra burning brigade has a lot to answer for here. The sort that think we need to be the same as or better than men to be taken seriously, instead of acknowledging that we are simply different. I'm not saying that the people on this thread would subscribe to that outdated political viewpoint in this day and age, but I do think that is where the root of this might lie.

Hmm - you might well have a point there, though I would have thought it was the other way round. When do you ever see men pretending that something painful, involving lots of blood and muscle-work, didn't hurt?

Btw, randomly, I remember reading that the pressure of contractions in labour can apparently be the same as a tube train door closing! That's one hell of an effort there.

Well indeed, but I think that is my point really. These women somehow need to prove (or kid themsselves) that they're better than that, and thereby the superior sex.

Oh, I see. Yes - that would be bad. That kind of 'feminism' (=sexism) makes me sad.

Nods knowingly alongside gaelicsheep.

Ain't I a woman?

Actually pregnant peppa my post did point out that we all have different levels of pain tolerance!!!!! Did you read all my post??????

With my first child I was sent home (when I was 6cm dilated!!) just because I wasnt screaming my head off!!!! I could have had him at home on the batrhroom floor if I hadnt started bleeding and gone back in and actually been examined by a registrar!!

Of course I felt pain....especailly with ds2....but just because some of us dont scream and shout and writhe about it doesnt mean we arent in pain. We just deal with it differently.....OK???

"It is quite another to imply, as many here have done, that she is somehow a lesser person because the circumstances of her particular labour made it more painful than the next woman's".

First off, I feel that mum on the programme was very poorly served by those people who were supposed to be helping her get through what is - for most of us - usually a bloody painful ordeal.

BUT - none of us know how much pain she was in, or how it compared to our own experiences of labour. You can't assume just because someone is thrashing around screaming and crying that they are in much worse pain than the woman next door who is labouring in silence. Some people ARE more stoical than others, like it or not! Stoicism just happens to be a very unfashionable quality these days, especially on mumsnet!

"Incidentally, being allowed some pain relief when I needed it would have significantly improved the psychological outcome for me. ie perhaps I wouldn't still be getting flashbacks more than 3 years later."

The research into women's satisfaction (or otherwise)in childbirth identifies CONTROL as the most important factor. Women might experience severe, appalling pain, but if it is their choice to go without pain relief, and if they're well supported in their labour they usually come out the other end emotionally intact. Women who want pain relief but don't get it are much more likely to be unhappy about their labours. In other words - it's not necessarily about how much or how little pain you have.

I think it's important that people understand that - it's pointless talking about 'pain threshholds' or one person's labour being harder than another. Neither of those things are necessarily the most important thing when it comes to how we feel about pain in childbirth, during or after the event.

"You wouldn't deny that the baby was in pain, surely even though it's a natural process? And would you medicate, or not?"

Who is denying anyone is in pain in labour - natural or 'unnatural'? And would I medicate? Well it depends whether medicating my baby put them at risk of any other illness or injury! I'd weigh up the risks and benefits, as you would in any other instance.

Sorry - want to add that how people react to pain is a deeply individual thing. Maybe being in pain made that young mum feel panic-stricken. Maybe she was psychologically unready for that baby and terrified by the sensation of being overtaken by the labour.

She was definitely panicking and fighting the labour, which I'm sure intensified the pain and distress she was experiencing. I felt very upsent watching her go through that - that anyone could be with a woman in that sort of state and not do anything to try to help her. And her mother berating her.

standanddeliver I also felt that the mother wasnt particularly helpful but I think Sam had mentioned that they didnt have a good relationship, so maybe thats why??

You said;
"BUT - none of us know how much pain she was in, or how it compared to our own experiences of labour. You can't assume just because someone is thrashing around screaming and crying that they are in much worse pain than the woman next door who is labouring in silence. Some people ARE more stoical than others, like it or not! Stoicism just happens to be a very unfashionable quality these days, especially on mumsnet!"

How very true!

I wish I had written that as it is exactly how I feel! Perhaps I did not express it very well in my original post, so thank you.

Watch it again, I don't think her mother did berate her. She doesn't have a soft voice or manner, and she didn't call her something loving like "darling", but I think that was just who she was: someone fairly direct and not very sloppy. When she told Sam she was making a fool of herself, or words to that effect, I didn't see that she was criticising her, rather she was trying to get Sam to look at her own behaviour and accept that she was not helping herself. Sam herself agreed with her mother when she said it. I thought it was a good way of trying to get Sam to get some perspective and get a grip on her fear. I really thought her mother was a good birthing partner, far more effective than her actual partner appeared to be, and when she held her and when she helped her stay still for the epidural etc, her true feelings were apparent.

Oh my god, I am so nervous about our first coming in the summer. Don't get me wrong, I can't wait, but I am so nervous. I haven't been able to bring myself to watch this program yet.

Good luck, MrsC2010! Do you know if you're having a boy or a girl yet?

I fail to see why screaming isn't a valid way of dealing with pain. I have a high pain threshold but I will squeal if you step on my toe. Sorry if that's upsetting to some people, but I really don't see why it's considered such a bad thing. Would it really be so bad if Sam had actually been in relatively little pain, and still felt that screaming was, for her, the best way of dealing with it? I don't believe so.

Not yet LittleRed! We've got a scan in a few weeks. To begin with we wanted to leave it as a surprise, but now the curiousity is taking over and we both really want to know! I don't have any gut feeling, and don't mind either way. Then comes the great name debate!

Ooh, exciting! The name debate will be interesting I bet - clearly you should choose off the names suggested in the thread that people loved but couldn't use

Haha, that sounds like a good starting point! So far we have bandied a few around light heartedly...we seem to have quite different views...this could be fun!

As soon as I saw that ginger girl (Sam, is it? The one with the bf scared beyond belief?), I turned to my mum and told me she had full permission to slap me if I behaved like that. I think you can moan and groan and cry when you're giving birth, obviously, but there is a limit!!! She looked totally spoilt and her bf looked terrified of her from the beginning when she came stomping down that damn hall! Would not like to meet her! Seems like a cow!