breast is best

[Haitch27]

Is anyone else who is pregnant sick to the back bloody teeth of the 'breast is best' campaign being shoved down your throat everywhere you turn and being badgered by health carers to attend breastfeeding 'workshops'?? Maybe its just where I live but it seems to be everywhere yet the one thing no one says is "are you planning to breastfeed"? Assumption that all Mums will!!
Curious to know as I said if it is just my area or is it everywhere?

Obviously, can't read all these posts so I am probably reiterating what has already been said...
I breast fed dd1 for 8 weeks and finished as I wasn't coping
dd2 was ill and so needed breast feeding for a year as couldn't go onto proper solids and I was on a restricted diet for her...she is well now..touch some wood!!
I don't think it matters and I don't care two hoots what a Mother chooses to do. The baby needs to be well nourished. Some can do that alone with breast milk...some need to top up with formula as their production is low..some can't and some choose not to for their own reasons.
I look around at classes of young children and I can't tell who was breast fed and who wasn't. Their IQ or EQ or weight or demeanor does not give them away as being one of the other...I can however see the happy ones with parents working hard to do their very best to love and nurture their children.. so is breast best? Who really cares? Not me!

Ruby, please expand on your dot dot dots. I am all ears.

"If a woman knows these facts, but rather doggedly insists they FF in the name of choice, well, call me fanatical if you like, but..." But what? If you are making an outright and unpleasant attack on those who choose to formula feed, please just come out and say it. No one will be surprised, and it will simply be another nail in your coffin. You think women who choose to ff are inferior scumbags who are a drain on society. I think that viewpoint reflects badly you on you, my dear, not those who ff.

MrsPoppins, I just wanted to say what a great post. I've already said I'm a pro-bf who ff her own and it's nice to hear people say what I think and especially when they put it so eloquently.

I breastfed both of mine for 6/7 months. It was really hard for the first 6 weeks, then got much better. For me, it was the best thing to do and I think all of us benefited hugely from it. Personally, yes, I do think breast is best and, personally, I think it's sad if someone makes up their mind not to bf without even trying. But, do I care whether someone else bf their child or not? No. Don't really get why it's such an emotive topic - I'm happy knowing I've done what I consider to be the best for my DCs. That may well be the polar opposite of what my neighbour thinks, though, but it's neither person's business what the other does.

Can I just fly the flag for twin mums here for a minute and the craziness of the campaign- there are all manner of breast feeding workshops / cafes / yummy mummy breast feeding groups (yes it is really is called that i'm not making it up) in my area and yet the logistics of attending one of these with twins made it impossible - i tandem fed and needed shirt and bra off and 7 cushions. Not something that could be done out and about.
Then there is the craziness of those stupid weight charts which show the weight gain for bottle fed babies only - of course breast fed ones are going to be lighter, especially if they are twins. I just stopped weighing my 2 at 2 months after we kept being in the bottom 5th centile. They should have different charts for breastfed babies.
In the twin antenatal classes those even thinking of bottle feeding were told not to bother attending the feeding class as it would only be about breastfeeding and the silly 'councillor' did not even acknowledge that it might be hard feeding more than one ( consider prem babies with small mouths, how to burp one when the other is still feeding etc). It was ridiculous and I felt very cross that those thinking of bottle feeding were being somehow excluded already.
I did bf my 2, but whenever pregnant twin mums ask me about it i say great if you want to, but take it one day at a time and each day that you bf congratulate yourself. If you can't DO NOT BEAT YOURSELF UP ABOUT IT EVEN FOR A MINUTE.

"If you can't DO NOT BEAT YOURSELF UP ABOUT IT EVEN FOR A MINUTE"

Never mind 'beating yourself up'. How about someone actually acknowledging that there are mums out there who feel hugely sad about not being able to breastfeed their babies? Are you not allowed to feel sad that you and your baby have missed out on something that might have been special and important to you? And missing out usually because of incompetence on the part of health professionals and a lack of social support.

I'm sick to death of people trivialising this issue.

I feel like screaming every time I hear someone say 'don't beat yourself up about not managing to breastfeed'.

Most women can breastfeed. Most women want to breastfeed. Why the hell are we all falling over ourselves to convince other mothers that it really doesn't matter whether they breastfeed or not?

I don't think anyone is trivialising it, standanddeliver. I think the women you mention often "beat themselves up" when feeling sad (as you say) when it's not their fault and feeling guilty doesn't help them or their baby.

As I have said on a similar recent post, YOUR body, YOUR baby, YOUR decision. I would bottle feed every time and don't feel guilty.

LadyThompson, I used the word fanatical in response to your unpleasant 'insulting zealot' remark. The dots refer to me not understanding the argument for bottlefeeding simply as a woman's right to choose. To say that women all over the country are let down by the lack of good advice and support is an understatement, particularly, (as has been said) as British breasts must be biologically able to produce milk! Women are also more alone now than ever before in terms of a lack of extended family support which makes something like breastfeeding a difficult thing to do successfully. And it is true that some women cannot breastfeed for medical reasons.

This is all fine - I have never denied this. I am simply stating an opinion that I don't agree with, or understand why a woman would bottlefeed when there is a better alternative, if she is perfectly able. The reasons for this opinion are both financial and environmental, and just plain 'I don't get it'. This is an opinion forum, as it says at the top, and I am not attacking anyone personally, although I think you might be , and although I may have been fairly direct about my thoughts on the matter, I have not resorted to saying anything like 'No one will be surprised, and it will simply be another nail in your coffin.' Am I supposed to be intimidated? This is a debate LadyThompson, and an emotive one at that, it would only be reasonable of you to expect some controversy.

"But again Ruby, isn't it more beneficial to focus the support on those women who do want to BF? That would reduce the environmental impact of formula more than trying to force 100% initiation rates, which would mean nothing if half those women couldn't establish BF due to lack of post natal support."

Allidon, couldn't agree more!

No one is trivialising anything. To think that is to misunderstand us. Some of us are saying we understand that we are not living in utopia. I couldn't cope with my first as I had too much milk and just constantly poured with milk and choked her when feeding. I was utterly distressed by the whole thing and it made me incredibly miserable. The second was a doddle but then was ill and I was forced into prolonged feeding as she wasn't allowed to have anything else but breast milk.
I am trying to convey to those who are struggling with the decision that they have taken for whatever reason, it is ok to be disappointed and also ok to move on.

With that in mind Ruby, why do you think the NHS is currently so focused on increasing initiation rates when the support post natally is so inadequate? It is something that truly baffles me.

WRT your previous post about whether the choice to FF is a simple as a woman's right to choose, I think it is (obviously!). I have the right to choose what happens to my body, and each of those choices is made after considering all the factors that are important to me (for example, I didn't even think of the environmental impact of FF). I have the right to refuse medical treatment, I have the right to prevent myself from becoming pregnant, I have the right to decide not to continue a pregnancy if I so wish, and I have the right to decide whether or not to use my breasts to feed my babies. I chose not to for reasons I detailed earlier in the thread. I don't think anyone could have changed my mind, although I am under no illusions that if I had grown up somewhere with BF as the norm I would more than likely not feel this way. I hope by the time my children are parents that BF will be more the norm in this country.

Standanddeliver, I am still waiting for a response to my earlier posts as to whether you have any evidence to back up your claim that "most babies try to breast feed"?

TimothyTigerTuppennyTail, are you in lancashire? i quite like those posters tbh

breastfeeding needs to be promoted here, when i had dd the hv said i was her only breastfeeder, which is pretty sad tbh, most of my friends (not counting the ones i met at breastfeeding group, ran by the people that do those posters) dont breastfeed for various reasons.

i dont get any of those 'talks', i was breastfeeding 10 month old dd at my booking in appointment (i'm 14 weeks pg), the mw said she would usually talk about the benefits but didnt think i needed it....

Allidon, most full-term babies born in good condition will root for the breast and try to self attach, particularly if they are given skin to skin contact in the hour after birth. It's a normal neonatal reflex, just like when a baby turns its face in towards your chest when it wants feeding.

That's why some midwives are very much in favour of not asking whether a mother intends to breastfeed, but instead just putting her newborn in her arms against her bare breasts and leaving the rest to nature. Sometimes women don't intend to bf, but when they experience their baby rooting for their nipple they go ahead and do it in an instinctive way.

Ruby, your attacks on those who choose to ff began reasonably early on in the thread (eg "The fact that women know that FF costs the NHS millions, increases various risks to their baby(ies) and still do it, is a damning indictment of some women's attitude in general"), or intimating that ff is such a drain on society, those who formula feed might consider restricting their use of essential services So, yes: I think you are a zealot and fortunately seem to be out on a limb.

I think if people wish to bf they should be given all the support they need - I feel that strongly. I also feel that people should not be berated or belittled for ff. But then, I recognise the need for people to make their own choices and, being a secure, considerate, libertarian sort of cove, have no desire to sneer or rage at others who make different choices to me. All power to them.

But again Standanddeliver, presumably most mothers who have no intention of BF would not hold their babies in that way. Mine had skin to skin, but I still had a bra on, and there is no way I would have put them in the position of trying to latch on, it would have been cruel and unnecessary. So while I take your point that most babies are capable of finding the breast themselves, I don't think most babies whose mothers intend to FF are given the opportunity to. Maybe that is what you meant in your original post, but if you did it was worded very badly.

Allidon - they try to crawl up towards the breast if you put them tummy down on your stomach after birth. The bobbing head thing they do if you put them in this position? That's part of what they do to try to attach to the breast! Also the turning the head in towards your chest if you hold them in your arms facing up.

Whatever mothers intentions as to how they're going to feed their babies, if you deliver a baby onto a mum's tummy, and the baby is alert and in good condition, it will usually begin to try to move towards the breast.

And of course bf or ff, most maternity units these days try to encourage skin to skin after the birth, because it's hormonally it's helpful for the baby and for the mother.

Of course the baby tries to root for the breast...that is wired in..I don't dispute that in the slightest but I am appalled at the idea that a Mother would be put into the position, immediately after giving birth when she may be at her most vulnerable emotionally, that she accidently feeds her baby from the breast when she may have had absolutely no intention of doing so. Blackmail springs to mind.

This is 2010...we are wired to be producing offspring willy nilly but we take pills to go against nature.

We are wired to not have children at older ages, but advances in medicine mean that women do.

Just because a behaviour is instinctive doesn't mean it is the only right path to follow and it is views that uphold this thought that cause the anxiety some women feel.

If a choice is made not to breast feed...so blooming what? There is no right and wrong and as I said earlier, can you tell which of your children's friends were BF or not? You can tell which are well looked after and loved though and ,my god, that surely is the only thing that matters.

Well said mrspoppins. I am horrified that a midwife would do this. Thankfully I was asked during each of my labours how I intended to feed, because if I (and my babies) had been deliberately placed in this position by a midwife, I would have been furious. I would think that a lot of women, particularly those who intend to FF, have no idea that the baby moving towards the breast and latching on is a possibility, and to put them in that position deliberately is cruel to the baby, never mind the mother.

Standanddeliver, once again I am not disputing the existence of this instinct, Ruby posted a video earlier in the thread which, as I said, I found fascinating. What I am disputing is your post saying most babies try to breast feed, which I took to mean trying to latch on. I presume then that in your earlier post what you actually meant was that most healthy full term babies have this instinct and display signs of it, not that most babies get to the point of trying to latch on. As I said, if that is the case then your post was badly worded, but I suspect you wrote it to deliberately ambiguous, not to mention emotive and unfair.

...sigh... ladythompson, you are entitled to your opinion, but the fact is you cannot seperate your personal choice from the more objective, bigger picture, which is why you are resorting to name-calling.

let's all f*k being responsible citizens in the name of our right to choose, shall we? ...and that insecure, inconsiderate, sneering, raging, fanatical opinion goes for all issues we are faced with today, from whether to recycle, to breastfeeding, to owning a car, to not switching of electrical appliances at the wall, to going to tescos instead of growing our own food, to generally f*king up this planet. i am guilty of a few of these which is a damning indictment of my attitude as a human being, and i am more than happy to say so.

"I don't dispute that in the slightest but I am appalled at the idea that a Mother would be put into the position, immediately after giving birth when she may be at her most vulnerable emotionally, that she accidently feeds her baby from the breast when she may have had absolutely no intention of doing so".

I think the idea behind this is that some midwives feel women have been damaged in some way by our anti-breastfeeding culture, to the point that they have lost touch with their instinct to breastfeed their baby, and in not encouraging instinctive behaviour by putting the baby down onto the mother's stomach and chest they are adding to the problem. Discouraging instinctive neonatal and maternal behaviours by deliberately putting the baby in a position (or wrapping the baby up instead of giving it skin to skin) where it is difficult for it to put those reflexes into action is something many midwives find very difficult to do, given their commitment to promoting the healthiest and safest behaviours for this newest and most vulnerable human being. And it's certainly the case that there are women(more than you think - I have certainly come across it several times) who - having had very little experience of or contact with breastfeeding', choose to breastfeed after the birth because of their early experience of instinct taking over.

Should midwives sacrifice these women's chance to breastfeed their babies and their babies chance to establish breastfeeding to protect the feelings of those women who don't wish to breastfeed? I can see that if a woman really mustn't breastfeed, perhaps because of medication or because she is HIV+ then it would be hard on the mother to expose her unnecessarily to her baby's natural rooting reflex, but if it's just a social choice.......? I'm not saying that if the mother chooses to have her baby wrapped and put in her arms or to deliberately put barriers in the way of her baby rooting for the breast she should be discouraged from this, if she's expressed a preference. But otherwise? Shouldn't the midwife just adhere to the physiological norm when it comes to immediate care after birth of mother and baby - unless the mum has asked her to do something different?

And Allidon - I stand by my point that most newborns would try to latch on if they are held in their mothers arms and access to the breast is not barred by clothing. Actually most newborns I know still turn in, mouthing, towards their mothers breast whether she is fully clothed or not.

newborns!! Ha, my 3yo still does that
Not really (much) but my 5mo definitely still does

lol my ds turned in towards his grandma's boob - in fact, it wasn't uncommon for grannies and aunts to feed the baby in times gone by - now wouldn't that give me a nice break!

DD latched on to DH recently, poor confused little thing. He laughed and then told me not to tell anyone - but you lot don't really exist, do you?!

"If a choice is made not to breast feed...so blooming what? There is no right and wrong and as I said earlier, can you tell which of your children's friends were BF or not?"

What nonsense. You can't tell which kids have been smoked all over (unless you get very close and sniff them), or are being fed on crap at home either. Or the vast majority of babies who have been exposed to alcohol and tobacco in the womb.

If it was that obvious it wouldn't have taken years of research to establish a link between stillbirth and low birth weight and smoking in pregnancy. Or prenatal smoking and sids

Honestly, it's just so infuriating to hear an adult using that sort of argument to justify choices they make which affect children.

And it's not a case of 'right and wrong' - this is not a moral issue. It's a health issue. Babies who are not breastfed are more likely to be hospitalised and to die. Even in developed countries.

Honestly - there is no other choice which adults make on behalf of themselves and their children where responsibly adults fall over themselves to deny the medical evidence of increased risk of ill health in babies in the way that we do with infant feeding. Can you imagine us taking the 'the only thing that matters is that you do exactly what you feel like' line in relation to any other maternal choice which affects the health of babies? Like smoking, diet in pregnancy or drinking? Like it or not - the maternal choice not to breastfeed does have implications for childrens health and development - whether we can perceive it with our own eyes or not. The least we can do as responsible adults is not deny this in order to make this choice easier for ourselves.