to wonder why a midwife would offer a woman, labouring beautifully in a pool, an epidural?

[FeckinFurious]

I have namechanged as I'm not sure if this is a bit obvious and I need to ensure confidentiality.

But...

I am utterly fuming.

Scenario.

Woman. Baby no 1. Labouring spontaneously in hospital, in a birth pool.

Long and painful but baby fine. Mum tired but coping, using entonox.

Midwife 1 goes off for lunch. Midwife 2 takes over.

By the time midwife 1 comes back from lunch midwife 2 has suggested an epidural to knackered, labouring woman who accepts.

within haf an hour epidural is sited and hormone drip going.

Woman is now being monitored continuously in bed.

Please comment.

I not only would have 'caved', I was actively asking for one. Fortunately, I'd discussed not having one with dh and told him to make sure I didn't get one. He had a chat with the m/w and I didn't get one. I had a lovely m/w.

It wasn't about me thinking a non-epidural birth better than one with. It was the fact that I would probably have spent most of the post-natal period and maybe years after thinking that every headache,backache and whatever else was due to the epidural interfering with my spinal cord (I can be a real worry-wort at times).

It's nothing to do with one birth 'trumping' another - I find that a really strange way of looking at it.

I didn't want an epidural because it increases the risks of other invasive procedures. Most people I know who don't want an epidural make that decision based on the same reasons. I don't think it's because some people particularly enjoy pain! It's about researching the options, weighing up the risks, and then going for what you want. And of course, many women change their mind - I know many women who planned a natural birth first time around but ended up going for an epidural because of the pain. Interestingly, many of them then try to manage without one for subsequent births, so I suspect there's a fairly strong desire among many women to make the experience as natural as possible. Having said that, some women just want every drug going.

The important thing is to realise that it's your decision as the mother as to what pain relief you have. That's why I still fail to understand the OP.

I wish a MW had offered me an epidural - I begged for one for hours while they tried to talk me out of it

I bet I know which is the more common scenario

Joanne - you said:

"..OP, YANBU.

I would be furious too. Woman says she doesnt want an Epidural... Midwife gives, because woman is in slow labour ????..."

And that prompted my answer:

"....Joanne - you are talking rubbish - the midwife did NOT give the woman an epidural without her consent and against her will. FFS, the woman climbed out of the waterpool and onto the bed - if she had been dragged there, forced into the position you have to adopt and hold whilst the epidural is placed, and then injected against her will, that would be very different.

If the midwife had given an epidural despite the woman saying 'No', that would be an assault, and that is not what the op describes.

What happened here, from the OP's account, is that the midwife offered an epidural, and the woman decided to accept voluntarily...."

Your post clearly suggests that the woman was given an epidural despite saying 'No' - and that is not what happened. Although previously and in her birth plan the woman stated she didn't want an epidural, it would appear that she changed her mind when in labour - and said 'Yes' to the epidural she was offered - very different to "..Woman says she doesnt want an Epidural... Midwife gives, because woman is in slow labour..."

And FYI, in neither of your posts of 12:07:23 or 12:11:34 did you say 'If it were you.., so saying:

"DER !! hence me saying ' IF IT WAS ME ! '

WAKE UP !"

...was frankly rather rude of you!

One point which hasn't been raised, though, is the speed with which this happened. MW1 goes on lunch with woman doing her thing in the pool, no hint of an epidural from all we know (where are you OP?) and within a lunch hour, she's had her epidural. Since these things take time, it does rather sound as though she was offered one pretty quickly.

Before having my baby (and I've only had the one...) I was worried should I not be able to cope, I'd be fobbed off about an epidural.

In fact, it never came up. It seems odd in retrospect - but it just didn't occur to me despite the pain (I do remember thinking at one stage "this pain just is not fair!"

I managed it on gas and air and was very happy with my birth - I had an episiotomy but the baby had her hand on her face and her heartrate was starting to dip by the end so I have no concerns about that. But I do wonder, had I been offered an epidural, what I would have said...

off subject but very relevant
nontheless.

OP I hope tis mother isn't a mnetter because if she is and happens to log on to find her treatment being discussed and recognises situation - which is likely.
She is likely to be feckinfurious and putting in a complaint.

If you are an nhs employee thats a disciplinary hearing and possible nmc involvement if not it still doesn't look good. This is a potential breach of confidentiality. I would ask for this thread to be deleted if I were you.

"had one'almost sound as though they think doing it sans epidural somehow 'trumps' a birth with one"

For me it did! I had higher levels of endorphins after my non-epidural long labour and was hugely more euphoric. I also very much appreciated not being catheterised and not being paralysed from the waist down for hours after the birth.

Once I found out about the role of oxytocin in birth and postnatally I very much wanted to avoid an epidural. Also didn't want to expose my babies to fentanyl if at all possible.

""One point which hasn't been raised, though, is the speed with which this happened. MW1 goes on lunch with woman doing her thing in the pool, no hint of an epidural from all we know (where are you OP?) and within a lunch hour, she's had her epidural. Since these things take time, it does rather sound as though she was offered one pretty quickly.""

Longtalljosie - maybe OP is MW1 and the woman labouring begged MW2 for an epidural the second she left the room, as she felt she couldnt ask OP??

Have we still not found out why FeckinFurious is Feckin Furious?

If MW1 was anything like the first midwife that examined me in my first labour, I'd have prayed fervently for her to leave the room: not much point in asking her for anything that she thought the sign of a whimp. Fortunately, she went off her shift before the serious business started. This was the woman who conducted her internal examination by squeezing my insides until I was ready to scream in agony and then explained it was to get me used to what it felt like. Nothing in my subsequent labour hurt as much as that, not even the heavy tearing! She clearly thought there was a value in suffering.

Good job the other midwives were prepared to listen to me and not go out of their way to supply me with experiences I hadn't asked for. I didn't end up with pain relief in the end, but don't recollect feeling particularly euphoric or proud about it; far more euphoric after my emergency section.

Well, labour feckinhurts so maybe she just got a point where her "beautiful labouring" was doing her in and she wanted some pain relief!

You don't get a medal for doing it without pain relief and you don't get a black mark for taking every pain killer you can legally get your hands on! Either way you do it, you get a baby, and that is what you are aiming for.

It hurts and pain is what the patient says it is, not what an observer thinks it should be.

YANBU

providing all the options for pain relief had been discussed with the woman already

Another one wondering if OP is the father - I know a few women who pre-birth have been adamant they want natural epidural-free births, and din into their partners that they want to be supported in that during labour, no matter what they say.
Come labour, quite a few of the women change their minds and have epidurals etc.

Father left feeling that he's failed to support mother enough. In a couple cases, mother blames father for not supporting her enough to have epi-free birth - while she may get over it in a couple weeks once the hormones wear off, dad is left feeling useless and crap.

We had a dad-to-be at our ante-natal group who went on and on about how women don't need pain relief because it's a natural procedure. His poor wife looked pale and said very little. Bet he was fuming if she ended up with something that didn't fit with his ideas.

Oh God. Whole thread is making me long to insert my epidural line NOW just in case there is any mistaking my intentions when I go into labour with 4th. I 'labour beautifully' when the pain goes away. Really. It's a stunning sight.

labouring beautifully?? I want to live in that universe

lisianthus,I was semi serious. MIL told me that when she was in labour they gave her a shot of pethidine because they mixed her up with a woman who was "making a lot of noise" . No explantion of what was going to happen just a needle in the leg or whatever. She was quite amused by it, I am horrified on her behalf.

I laboured beautifully, I was a beautiful sight in my made to measure labouring gown and full make up. DH dabbed my brow every now and then as I stopped smiling angelically long enough to let out a slight whimper.

(and I do understand the concept of labouring beautifully, and FWIW think I had beautiful labours. Just does conjure up images of that woman in Friends who lets out a slight squeak at a big contraction )

that does sound beautiful stealth ,

still, 21 hours of exhausting relentless agony is a truly beautiful thing...

..if you are the OP observing someone else going through it...

Maybe off topic slightly, but why is it considered better/more natural to sit in a pool of water than on a bed?

coffeeaddict - I too aboured beautifully with ds2 once my epidural kicked in, was pretty horrific up until that point. Getting him to come out wasn't beautiful but that's another story.

The warm water is comforting and relaxing, and it supports the woman so it is easier for her to use different positions during labour.

"You don't get a medal for doing it without pain relief and you don't get a black mark for taking every pain killer you can legally get your hands on! Either way you do it, you get a baby, and that is what you are aiming for."

But there are 'rewards' sometimes for going without pain relief: a more alert baby who's more likely to breastfeed, a less bruised baby, less perineal damage, better postnatal health. Is it politically incorrect or something to acknowledge this?

BTW - 'labouring beautifully' is generally used to mean 'labouring efficiently and well'. You've got to ask yourself why so many people have chosen to misinterpret the OP. Maybe it's because interpreting it as comment on the aesthetic qualities of the mother's labour gives you moral permission to declare open season on tree hugger birth enthusiasts.

Honestly - midwives and other people involved in birth use this sort of expression to describe a mother who is labouring well ALL THE TIME. Get over it!

"Maybe off topic slightly, but why is it considered better/more natural to sit in a pool of water than on a bed?"

"More natural" is not always synonymous with 'better'.

Women who give birth in water are generally much more positive about their births than women who give birth on dry land, they need less pain relief and they're less likely to have perineal damage.