to wonder why a midwife would offer a woman, labouring beautifully in a pool, an epidural?

[FeckinFurious]

I have namechanged as I'm not sure if this is a bit obvious and I need to ensure confidentiality.

But...

I am utterly fuming.

Scenario.

Woman. Baby no 1. Labouring spontaneously in hospital, in a birth pool.

Long and painful but baby fine. Mum tired but coping, using entonox.

Midwife 1 goes off for lunch. Midwife 2 takes over.

By the time midwife 1 comes back from lunch midwife 2 has suggested an epidural to knackered, labouring woman who accepts.

within haf an hour epidural is sited and hormone drip going.

Woman is now being monitored continuously in bed.

Please comment.

Can I also say, I think the intervention thing quite often comes because a woman may have been labouring quite a long time or painfully and by the time she gets an epidural and she may be exhausted by that point. It may well have been the case that even if they hadn't had an epidural then some assitance may have been required?

Thanks JUSTMOON

Everyone I know who had an epidural went on to push the baby out themselves including myself. This assumption that an epidural leads to intervention is one of those MN things.

The point about control is a valid one. My first labour was really painful but I never felt I couldn't cope & didn't have any pain relief. My second labour was much more painful from when I was only 2 cms & I felt totally out of control hence the need for an epidural. I get annoyed by women who seem to think they coped with the pain better so didn't need an epidural as I now know for a fact some labours are much more painful than others.

It's not a 'MN thing' though - the statistics show that when a woman has an epidural, the chances of intervention are higher. It doesn't mean that everyone will need forceps or ventouse, but it increases the risk. I don't see how anyone can seriously dismiss that as 'just a MN thing!'.

I think all of us who have given birth more than once can vouch for the fact that some labours are more painful than others. No two labours are identical. My first was terribly painful, my second hurt badly but not quite as much.

I don't know why this needs to be a controversial topic - the facts about epidurals and associated risks are known, it's up to women to make their own decision for each labour, which appears to be what the OP did. (Though she hasn't come back to admit that!)

Statistics don't show the reasons behind the increased intervnetion though. Looking at it the other way round if you need intervention you're also likely to have an epidural which the stats don't take into account. The general opinion on MN seems to be that an epidural is a bad thing likely to ruin your labour & leave you with problems which is simply not the case. Using statistics in such a simplistic manner is misleading.

You can go round in ever decreasing circles with this argument though. The fact that an epidural correlates with higher intervention rates is uncontestable. There is no evidence to prove that women who have epidurals would have needed interventions anyway, so it may, or may not be the case. I suspect women have epidurals for many reasons - they may be exhausted due to a long labour, the baby may not be in the optimum position, the mother may feel she isn't coping with the level of pain.

I don't think the general opinion is that an epidural is likely to 'ruin your labour ' - I've never seen that view expressed before! There is just honesty about the fact that it is a major medical intervention which correlates with higher intervention rates for mother and baby.

I think many women (me included) feel guilt about having an epidural, as by "caving in" to the pain, you then open the door to having an even shittier birth. To this day I still feel like DCs ventouse delivery was "my fault". It so wasn't but I am so bloody incomplete about it...

There a one million "proud" natural birth stories, and I am happy for them.

I'd like to see more proud epirdural stories too.

as a woman posted noone gets a prize for having a tooth out pain free!

That's a shame you feel like that porcamiseria, but that's why it's important for people like you (and the woman described by the OP) to examine your labour and try to understand what it is you're not happy about. It's not useful to try to offload responsibility. (Not saying you are btw but the OP is).

Yes, many women who have a natural birth feel euphoric and amazed at themselves for having done it, but that's fine, that's about them, it doesn't mean they are judging anyone else. Frankly, it's our own babies we care about, and our own experiences anyway. D

I still think the analogy about having a tooth pulled out is not very relevant, because childbirth is fundamentally different to a surgical procedure. It is an entirely natural event (albeit a very painful one!) and also it involves another life. That's not a judgement just a fact. If a woman is happy to see it as a medical procedure, and decides to have the pain relief that would go hand in hand with medical procedures, then that's fine, but there will always be a strong core of women who don't view it like that, and want to experience it naturally, which is also fine.

Thinking about this perception that MNers tend to be 'against epidurals', surely the argument about correllation applies equally well here? It's like the argument that I've sometimes seen here that the NCT is 'against' epidurals, and that they strongly discourage them. IME of NCT classes, the teacher went out of her way to fit the classes to the wants and needs that the mums-to-be already came with. I remember in the first class, the teacher said 'We have X number of sessions; I will gear the focus towards what the group want. If you want to know a lot about epidurals, we'll spend more time on that. If you are very keen to try a natural birth, we'll spend longer on that.' Everyone in the group was very keen to make the major focus natural birth, with lots of time to practise breathing etc. We covered everything, Csections, epidurals etc but the main focus was on what the group asked for.

Now, anyone taking an objective look at that group might argue 'The NCT only promotes natural birth, it believes that epidurals are inferior'. Wrong. The NCT promoted what the women in it were saying they wanted.

The demographic of MN would no doubt show that a larger than average number are pro-natural birth. It's not that MN is preaching a particular stance, simply that many of the women who post on here have that viewpoint to start off with

Violethill without trying to be confrontational (becasue I'm not, I suspect it's posts like your above that makes porcamiseria feel the way she does. As much as you are trying to say it's OK to have an epidural, you are still suggesting that if she does then she sees child birth as a medical procedure rather than something natural. All pain is natural whether it be toothache or childbirth, to receive pain relief does not make a birth unnatural not medicalised, a CS may be medicalised but not pain relief.

Porcamiseria, like violethill, I also felt euphoric and amazed at myself for having 'done it'. I feel no guilt about pain relief - I gave birth to two healthy (and rather large) babies. Even if they had been pulled out of me or cut out of me I would feel the same. You should not feel at fault because you baby was helped out.

What I would like to say is this; the actual birth is a mere moment, I grew and carried my babies for nine months and I have cared for them, laughed and cried with them and loved them for 6 years and 2.5yrs each. That to me is the most important part of being a mother, not just a day of labouring.

JustMoon - I'm glad you've posted I was starting to feel rather lonely in reading judgement into violethills posts. My labour with ds2 was awful but nothing compared to having a baby who cries what feels like constantly. As you say the labour is a very small part of being a mother.

Claire236, I just cannot bear the thought of a mother being judged or feeling guilty about her birthing choices when all any of us want is a baby at the end of it. We go through enough guilt and judgement once they're here!!

JustMoon - guilt certainly goes hand in hand with motherhood. I wish I hadn't needed an epidural with ds2 but I'm glad I had the choice as I was suffering so much. It's terrible that women feel guilty for making choices which help them to deliver their babys.

JustMoon - I am absolutely NOT making anyone feel any guilt about their labour, and in fact I have pointed out a number of times that it's a shame that some women feel like that. Guilt is a negative emotion, and that's why I feel the OP is barking up the wrong tree. I actually rather resent the fact that you are trying to make me 'responsible' for someone else's feelings of guilt.

Also - you are the one who is using the term 'unatural' about a birth - not me. I simply pointed out that an epidural is a medical procedure. Which it is. That's not a judgement, it's a fact. It requires an anaesthetist and also requires the mother to be carefully monitored.

I think women should be allowed to make their own, informed choices. If that means doing without pain relief, then let them do that without sitting in judgement.

I am annoyed that the OP has not deigned to come back and tie up the loose ends.. but maybe realised she has no business being furious for another' woman's pain releif choices

i hope it is not a doula, who should remain non judegemental and objective when looking after their clients

Exactly Lulu - I still strongly suspect the OP is writing abuot herself. It certainly doesn't make sense if she is writing on someone else's 'behalf' - she should have more respect for other people's choices.

And if she is writing about herself - well, as has been said several times over 13 pages - she agreed to have the epidural, they aren't a quick thing, you have to have the risks explained to you, an anaesthetist has to be called, it needs to be sited - it takes time. If she went through all that and now in hindsight wishes she hadn't, it would be more helpful to reflect on why she made that choice and will hopefully feel better about any future births she may go through

'If a woman is happy to see it as a medical procedure, and decides to have the pain relief that would go hand in hand with medical procedures, then that's fine'

So you don't think this is saying anything to make women feel guilty violethill?

'Yes, many women who have a natural birth feel euphoric and amazed at themselves for having done it, but that's fine, that's about them, it doesn't mean they are judging anyone else.'

And this comment was applying to women who have epidurals as well then? If not then YOU are suggesting they have unnatural births.

Now I'm not trying to put words in your mouth so I don't know why your getting so angry with me, I was trying to politely point out that the phrasing you use is likely to be read negatively by those who may need or want an epidural.

By the way, where have I sat in judgement about anyone's choices? I think I have been clear that the choices should be made freely by the individual.

JustMoon - I stated that many women who have a natural birth feel euphoric about it afterwards. I did. Many others do. Fact. it does not mean that women who have births with medical intervention don't feel euphoric. You are trying to add something which I have not written.

Also, you introduced the term 'unnatural', which actually I find quite judgemental. 'Natural' birth is a commononly used term heard all over the place to define a vaginal birth without medication. 'Unnatural' is not commonly used in relation to childbirth, which is why I'm surprised that you use it. I haven't used it to descibe childbirth at all - only in quoting your posts.

As for the medical procedure aspect, well, are you trying to suggest that having an epidural is not a medical procedure? Because I don't think you'll find many highly qualified anaesthetists agreeing with you !

Violethill you are getting wound up and trying to make something that's not there. Please stop it. I'm not going to get into a ridiculous argument about why I am being judgemental (really amazed at that one ), I posted on here because porca asked if anyone had a positive experience with epidurals which I have. If you genuinely can't see how some of your comments can come across then I think that's quite sad.

Well you feel sad on my behalf then JustMoon!

I have stated time and time again, that it is up to women to make their own informed choices, then hopefully they will feel happy with their experience, and we won;t get people like the OP posting, obviously not happy with her experience, but then running!

And incidentally I'm not remotely wound up, felt very happy with my 3 births, am just slightly amazed that anyone can seriously think an epidural is not a medical procedure! (maybe a teensy wound up on behalf of highly trained anaesthetists who carry them out!)

No, you don't sound it either.

In response to the OP, i went into labour thinking/saying i didnt want any form of pain relief. I changed my mind after 24 hours.

Oh FFS I read entire thread and OP hasn't come back to say who she is in the story!

YABU just for that