to have noticed that Tory voters are more polite on the whole than their left-wing counterparts

[SeaTheStars]

You don't get many lifelong Conservative voters talking about dancing on Michael Foot(e?)'s grave in the style of a rabid working class person talking about Mrs Thatcher do you?

What does everybody think about Scottish independance? I'm interested and fairly ignorant on the subject and wondered how Scots feel about it?

SeaTheStars,

The premise of your question is flawed. Human nature is human nature, whether Tory or Labour.

There are wonderful Labour people, and wonderful Tory people. There are awful Labour people, and awful Labour people.

You do have a point though that there are many Labour men who are particularly misogynistic about Thatcher.

Hate is perfectly acceptable for a PM you despise - but anyone who says they want to piss on her grave? I agree entirely with this article - if she wasn't female, would Eddie Izzard start talking about his genitals?

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/emmahartley/5916647/A_very_Leftwing_kind_of_misogyny/

One of my earliest political memories is seeing my mum (who didn't vote for Thatcher in 1979) break down in tears when was elected because she hadn't ever thought it was possible for a woman to get so far.

Oops screwed up the link

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/emmahartley/5916647/A_very_Leftwing_kind_of_misogyny/

When I was 10 (1989) I remember the santions, i remember an assembly about it. something about buying the right apples

my dad still maintains that Nelson Mandela is a terrorist.

How ridiculous. SeaTheStars, I might just as well say "AIBU for thinking that all Tory voters are completely incapable of understanding other human beings?" (i.e. referring to you).

The 'dance on her grave' statement was apppalling, but it came from a person who clearly has no boundaries, not a left-wing person who clearly has no boundaries.

Do keep up, dear.

sanctions. ooops

I knew someone would bring up "there's no such thing as community" quote.

1. If you're going to quote, get it right. She said "there's no such thing as society"

1. It has to be taken in context. She said this in respect of the fact that people couldn't expect "society" to support them and to sort out their problems because ultimately society is just a collection of individuals who have to take responsibility for themselves. To widen the quote somewhat

"They are casting their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families."

Many sociologists would disagree. I'd take their opinions on society long before I took Maggie's.

Surely all sociologists don't agree with one another (would make for rather a dull discipline), so presumably you just "take" the opinions of the ones you agree with.

Oxymoron I think (refering to the OP)

I said "many", not "all" sociologists! In any case I was comparing their knowledge of sociology with Maggie's, which I suspect is rather on the low side.

Yes, but the point is that Maggie was never trying to make a point on sociology. What she was trying to say (if you read the whole speech)was that you can't blame your ills on society because society is an abstract concept. In order to solve problems you have to rely on the units of society- individuals and families, and you have to understand that rights confer responsibilities. No-one should have a sense of entitlement.

I would absolutely agree with you that to say that there is no concept of society would be flawed, but that's not what she meant and I think in these days of sound bite politics there is a real danger that a lot of people just grab the one liners without really contextualising (not helped by "call me Dave" rescussitating the whole thing)

Btw, for the record, I disagree with the OP. I don't think politeness divides along political lines and I would be just as appalled at this comment made about any person- it's just unnecessary.

People absolutely do quote that "society" thing out of context and it is very misleading. Here is the whole paragraph - from the interview in "Woman's Own" in October 1987:

"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

YABU.

I'm amazed you have never heard "rabid" comments from Conservative voters. Go to any news website and you will see comment upon comment raging against "Zanu Labour" or "Liebour" (oh, the wags), really full of hatred, blaming all the ills of society on the last dozen years of Labour government...

I have met plenty of polite people of all political affiliations.

People have forgotten how hideous life was under the Tories

now lets put that in context - in 1979 my folks were on benefits, and there was 25% infaltion -their benfits went up every quarter - the price of bread went up every week. bit of a nightmare, no? no to mention the winter of discontent, where the dead weren't even being buried...(regular power and water cuts too) Not great. does anyone remember this and curse that government for it?

then MT came in, things started to work again - basic services came back on line. Inflation came back under control and gradually - people got back into work, but doing real jobs rather than being paid to stand around on non-moving production lines(ala British leyland circa 1978) by goverment subsidy.

i think the whole Falklans War thing is just an utterly groundless misreading of history - the claim it was done for popularist reason?

anyone would think she'd called General Galtieri and asked him to invade, taking hostage to a county with a shameful human rights record a few thousand UK nationals - MT had absolutely no choice but to invade, or watch those people be held to ransom....

which postwar prime minister would not have done exactly the same thing? Furthermore MT was never noted for doing things to get votes, rather than because she believed it was the right thing to do.

I agree that much of the hatred had much to do with her being female - socialist males hated being laid down the law to by a lady. (her own party weren't too keen on it)

So - I have no problem with historical criticism, but make it have some grounding in fact. Those cheap shots as you get on Have i got news for you on the other hand - eg. 'i can't wait for her to die' - just disgusting and not funny at all. She was Prime Minister. She isn't now. Get over it. I don't like much of what Blair did (though more on a civil liberty basis) but don't feel any need to vilify him - factual criticism is sufficient.

TSC - you say the UK doesn't make anything. in fact the manafacturing sector was in growth up to until the most recent financial problem to the tune of 1% ayear - a small increase, but an increase nonetheless. All following the basic policy laid down by MT 30 years ago....

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist - my RE teacher who was a huge fan of his said as much (she was proud to have his autograph) - and he'd have gone to jail just the same for doing the same thing in this country.

The political/ cultural benefit gained by his release was still great though - he became something more.

Terrorism/freedom fighter always subjective and - rightly - hotly-disputed.

EdgarAllenPoe wrt the winter of discontent: is there not an argument - relating to various points in history, and not limited to the left - that govts in certain circs bcm dysfunctional and cannot take the action required to move forward? I don't partic blame Labour for the W o D - I can look at the preceding century and think , well that figures.

Sorry how rude - I meant EdgarAllenSnow [divvy]

well yes. there's always that argument - hough thatchers govt improved on the previous - and got re-elected as a consequence partly on the memory of how awful that had been! when you look at the policies in the context of the situations, however - then you have a more definite basis for comparison/ criticism. Every governemnt is at the very least responsible for the policy - even if the actual situation is beyond their total control.

Who has been (mis)quoting "there is no such thing as community"? I didn't see it but no need to nitpick. There has already been a fair bit discussion on both the exact terms and Thatcher's intent both in general policy terms and in the infamous "there is no such thing as society".

People do find that speech very objectiontable, IMO because they understand her full meaning and the implications, not the opposite.

This is a depressing thread.

ahhhhhhh fark off

Don't rule out them trying..

The Conservative government supported apartheid, did business with the apartheid regime and stood against sanctions.

Whether or not you'd call Nelson Mandela a terrorist, fact is Maggie and her mates were supporting an evil regime that oppressed, tortured and killed millions of innocent people.

I think dancing on her grave is a rather mild response to that, tbh.