to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

Soph does have a point, though.

My substance abuse really didn't come from deep emotional trauma or wounding in early childhood.

It came from adulthood.

It came from not being able to forgive myself for a lot of things I did in adulthood, what I consider early adulthood and then some, and it was self-destructive by nature.

So I disagree with her that it's always some Great Hidden Trauma from childhood.

But substance abuse is inherently self-destructive, and that does need to be addressed.

And, believe it or not, it can be in AA.

Totally.

expat, one day i'll strap you to the couch with a magnum of wine between us, WHOOPS, sorry, some sparkling water, and we'll get to the bottom of your GHT.

In all seriousness, your adult behaviours might possibly have had their roots earlier? possibly? doesn't matter either way. if you were in therapy you'd be addressing them in the here and now through your relationship with your therapist.

or you'd go to AA and abstain. and hopefully not become a massive spliffhead, exercise junkie, workaholic etc etc etc.

Gosh you are slippery.

So now everyone is wounded and that's fine, and you are inferring from my post that I think being wounded is something to be ashamed of and because I am talking in those terms means I must be wounded but am in denial, thus nicely fitting in with your theory.

Or something.

I think I was happier with my previous thought. Which was that the people on this thread who have abstained, through 12 steps or otherwise, and now find themselves free of a yearning for alcohol, and are contented and fulfilled and getting on with a normal sober life, are genuine in that feeling. That they (and I) do not necessarily have deepseated emotional problems. They may do, they may not. Who can say? Well, the people themselves say they are happy and well, yet this is doubted by the very people who are paid to tackle these issues.

It feels all wrong to me, I have to say.

On that note I will disengage from this I think, as I have no real desire to have a big point scoring sort of argument.

I suppose I am proud of everyone on this thread who has beaten this, and I do not like it when people come along and say well actually, no you haven't. Way to put a downer on things, frankly.

jesus, you're like george bush 'if you're not with me your against me'.

talking in terms of degrees is not 'slippery'. i'm trying very hard to engage openly with you. wtf you seem to have it in for me (you've called me slippery, putting a downer on those in recovery, etc etc etc) i have no idea. perhaps i would if you weren't a namechange.

LOL, soph! Make mine an Irn Bru, DS is a piss poor sleeper.

But for you I'll punt for some Dean and Deluca coffee beans!

The only thing that may have sprung from my childhood was a tremendous sense of duty and, consequently, guilt.

Nowt else. Been regressed, hypnotised (a disaster), on a couch, etc.

I did things that I felt made me a Bad Person.

And as a result, I felt the need to atone.

By killing myself slowly.

Now, there are just bad days. Bad months. Even bad years.

But there is the clarity of sobriety and the guilt goes away because it is no longer clouded by substances.

It's just all me.

And I can learn to live with that.

But I truly don't think I could have without AA.

ach expat would hug you but it's against mn law.

Maybe my posts are coming across like that, I find it hard to articulate exactly what I mean.

I don't have it in for you. I just don't like this idea that problems always have to be down to psychological problems (although obviously a lot of the time they are) or that everyone who decides they have issues with alcohol is pretty far gone IYSWIM.

High functioning alcholics who hold down jobs, look after their children, have good relationships with colleagues and friends, but get through 2 bottles of wine every night when they get in - people like that do contact services for support, and it should not be assumed that everyone contacting services is in serious trouble.

That assumption caused serious trouble for me, which is why I am like a dog with a bone about this. Although I probably should leave it!

I changed my name when I posted my first thread about my drinking BTW, I have been in this name for about 3 months now, so this is "me". I have always changed every few months or so, so you wouldn't recognise any of my previous incarnations I'm sure.

Then we'll stick to the Tibetan maxim: a friend's good fortune is a blessing .

AA works for some. It doesn't work for other.

So what?

I see where you are coming from, too, ImSo, as you know from other threads.

expat

i think I had better go to bed!

Maybe one more cup of tea...

I am glad that you are feeling good though (is good the right word?)

I'm doing all right, Imso.

But DH brought a bottle of Irn Bru home from work at 9 and I foolishly drank it!

Not good for the insomniac but I still need to get some paperwork together because the HV is coming to countersign DS's British passport photos tomorrow so we can visit the US 31 March!

How cool is that?!

Well, it's because my dad, who is teetotal now for 21 years , is not able to make the journey here anymore, bless him.

but still, BIG trip!

9 passports in total.

forgive me, I'm feeling a bit giddy about the whole thing after over 8 years away.

sorry for growling isnt.

we fundamentally disagree about psychological problems - what does that mean? you imply there is a stigma to that, i don't think there is. I think most people have some issues. I really do! It sounds a bit like you felt really intruded on almost violated by your experience of trying to access help for drinking. sounds shit tbh.

our fundamental disagreement is probably that you think that the 2 bottle a night high functioning mc person couldn't benefit from therapy and i think they could. but then i think that good therapy is a huge priviledge which it is scandalous that there is so little access to.

but it would only do any good at all if that person wanted it!

And no, soph, he was not an alcoholic before that.

What he was, however, was a sitting duck for heart disease, which struck him relatively late for his family, 21 years ago, considering he is 77.

After his first heart attack, he ditched what little booze he drank entirely.

I've just assembled the passport stuff and am just a bit giddy about it all.

Check back with me when we have to get up at 3.30AM to fly to Amsterdam and then the 9-hour flight to Houston, though, and I probably won't be.

Especially as DH will need to see the GP about getting a patch prescribed for the trans-Atlantic leg of the journey and back.

He's never liked alcohol, had 3 Stellas at NYE and puked because he had a cold, that's him for the year!

But when it comes to fags, well . . .

just checking name change worked

'you imply there is a stigma to that, i don't think there is.'

I don't! I'm a poster child for mental health issues.

But I think whatever gets a person sober gets a person sober, IYKWIM.

Because you just can't deal with anything else if you're still using.

Oh, where the hell is MIFLAW? He's probably in bed.

Grrr.

i totally agree expat. with those sentiments.

I just don't see the issue, tbh. At first, alcoholism is just that. Get clean. However you need to. Then deal with how to stay clean: be it AA, therapy, a Buddhist monastery, a cult, etc.

Gees.

Leads me to believe the OP has never been there, IYKWIM.

One foot in the hole, one foot digging deeper and hating every minute, thinking, 'This is SO dumb! I'm SO sick of this! Where can I go for people who will just help me because I want to stop. I don't want to be this person any more. I don't want to be a slave to this because it doesn't give a shit about me.'

Ever been there?

I really hope not!

Yes i think we will have to agree to disagree. FWIW I think that most of people are messed up to a greater or lesser extent - but that that is the nature of being human. Everyone has something they are weird about, something bad that has happened in their lives. What I don't think is that it should be assumed that an addiction must be a consequence of this.

I will present my now famous booze monkey theory if I may - there was a program about alcohol a while ago where they had an experiment where a load of monkeys were given free access to alcohol. 25% tried it once and never again, 50% could take it or leave it, 25% kept going for more for as long as it was there. The booze monkeys weren't presumably reacting to something that had happened in their childhood. They just couldn't get enough of the feeling that alcohol gave them.

Assuming (yes it's a big assumption) that a similar proportion of people are also "booze monkeys", then the current out of control drinking is no surprise. When given free access, a proportion of people will drink and drink and drink. There are social and practical constraints to consumption, as well as "self control", which puts the brakes on a lot of people. But the people who are booze monkeys - you can spot them. Their eyes light up when a drink is mentioned, they are always wanting just one more, you can see the panic in their eyes as last orders approaches, the excitement as drinking time approaches. i can recognise this in other people, as it is how I am (was). These people aren't necessarily drinking beacuse they are fucked up, they are drinking because alcohol makes their happy brain receptors light up like a christmas tree. They simply love it. But when they realise what they are doing, that they are wanting the drink too much, that it is controlling them and not vice versa, well then sometimes they just stop. And that is just fine.

Was being sarcy about famous theory I look a bit up myself there.

And forgot to say WOOHOO expat to fabulous homecoming trip!

'They simply love it. But when they realise what they are doing, that they are wanting the drink too much, that it is controlling them and not vice versa, well then sometimes they just stop. And that is just fine.'

Well, I agree.

It's different for everyone.

Some are happy with who they are. I've known many dependents/substance abusers who have no kids and know who they are and are okay with that.

Well, I can't argue with that, IYKWIM.

namechange are you OK?

"12-step programmes' emphasis on shame, guilt"

"We will not regret the past, nor wish to shut the door on it" ("Big Book" of Alcoholics Anonymous)

Compare and discuss.

Ok, it did.

I have first hand experience of this OP, and you are absolutely right IME.

During my final year at Uni, and for a few years post graduation, I had a problem with alcohol (quite a bad one to be honest) and was basically shooed into AA.

At the time, I was completely on my arse, and would have listened to what anybody told me, I was that desperate.

AA was unbelievably welcoming to me, I left my first meeting with a dozen member's phone numbers and was told repeatedly to 'keep coming back'.

The fundamental problem I had was that I do not, and know that I never will believe in god. For the first few months, people kept saying to me that it was OK, that I could have the AA community as my 'Higher Power' rather than an actual belief in god. All good so far.

Then after about 3 months, I came under enormous pressure to believe in god (and I mean serious pressure). In the end, I saw it for the cult that it is and said that I was leaving.

You wouldn't believe the amount of pressure I came under to stay, everyone kept saying that if I left, I would die of my 'disease', that I couldn't manage without AA, and all sorts of other frightening things.

By this time I had met my now DH and he showed me that there was life outside AA. I abstained from alcohol completely for about 4 years, and now drink in a controlled fashion. I have never had any problem controlling it, as I now understand that at the time I had the problems, I was just deeply unhappy with my life.

It was nothing to do with 'The Disease of Alcoholism' as AA tried to have me believe, just an unhappy soul with nothing better to do.

I am absolutely furious with the cult that is AA, as all they do is to draw in vulnerable people, often at their lowest ebb, and simply switch their addiction to alcohol onto an addiction to AA.

They actively advocate against employment and relationships, whereas in real life, these things are the foundation for a healthy and successful person.

AA creates their cult by trying to make its members believe that they are somehow different from the rest of the world, and that only an AA member will really understand you.

As the average AA member (especially early in their AA career) only associates with other AA members, you start to believe that traits that you and the AA members share are unique to AA.

As there is such limited contact with the real world, it is impossible to 'yardstick' that against other, non-AA people.

I remember a time when I commented that I couldn't open a packet of biscuits without eating the lot. All the AA people jumped on that fact as proof positive that I was one of them. Now that I am back in the real world, I can see that most people share that trait to a certain extent (DH can practically inhale a packet of biscuits and is definitely not an Alcoholic!)

I'm starting to ramble now, but I would urge extreme caution around AA, I am so pleased that I got out when I did. Everyone's different and I do understand that some people benefit from AA, but I really take issue with their protestations that unless you attend 3 meetings a week and abstain from Alcohol for life then you will die - nearly 6 years on, I am proof that this isn't the case.

Yes thanks ImSoNotTelling Just writing a blooming essay

"12 steps addresses a symptomatic behaviour, but not the cause."

The whole purpose of the 12 steps is to address the cause.

The behaviour is addressed by abstinence, which is an implicit part of the first half of the first step.

The other eleven and a half are all about becoming less of a shit.

Perrhaps the people you know didn't do the steps at all but just abstained and went to meetings?