to feel pity for the mum who killed her kids?

[littlestmummystop]

Obviously it is an unforgivable thing to do..

But sometimes when I see these parent kills kids stories, part of me nods and thinks: There for the Grace of God.

I've never been in the position where I've wanted to do something so terrible. But I have been involved in a horrible, bitter break up, been stuck in the house with a screaming child, been driven to the edge of my sanity by all the responsibility and depressive feelings...

I can see why someone, who IS of a deranged mind, who doesn't have any support can do this.

She'll get villified now and all she needed was help. Those kids were obviously well cared for, for years beforehand. When a good mum turns bad something has gone horribly wrong and it's a shame more people don't help in these situations.

Dont be ridiculous and petty.

We don't know, yet, if she had a mental illness.

You are right Crackfox- that is why I put if she is then she should hopefully get some appropriate treatment.
If she is not mentally unwell than she can rot in hell along with all other child murderers.

YABU If she couldn't cope she'd have been better to kill herself and spare the kids

IN some cases a person who is mentally ill is operating according to a completely insane logic - for instance, believing that one's own child is posessed, or a monster, or that killing the child is the only way to 'save' him/her. A person who acts while in this kind of mental state should not be blamed. S/he really couldn't help it.
There was a man a couple of years ago who killed his DD due to this kind of psychosis, I think he later killed himself when the psychosis either wore off or he was given medication that made him rational again.
Not saying this is what happened in this case. WE DON'T KNOW what happened so all the competitive 'Waah how eeeevil' ranting is a bit pointless.

Latest reports are saying she was known to the police.

No doubt more will come out in due course.
However.

I'm pretty much your typical hand wringing lefty and about as liberal as they come. I even read the Guardian...but I just don't get the rush to understand/forgive people who commit these terrible acts.

Some acts are beyond forgiveness and this is one of them.

Excellent post SGB.

Whoever posted it is right she could be a mumsnetter, she used internet apenting forums apparently.

When it comes to an understanding of psychiatric illnes I'll go with tiredemma knowing her background, tbh.

SGB - it's utterly human to have a strong and visceral reaction to something like this.

And this being Mumsnet - you are going to get some very strong reactions from people who aren't afraid to express their opinions.

There are some mental illnesses that cause a person to act in an irrational, psychotic manner.

We don't know if it applies in this case.

If a person had a brain tumour that caused the disruption of certain functions in her brain (say, loss of movement in some limbs) would we blame her for that paralysis?

Some mental illnesses are so severe that they are actually the reason why someone behaves the way they do, not just an underlying depressive malaise.

Since I do not know what category this woman falls into I feel neither pity nor disgust for her.

I feel terrible for her little children, her family and for anyone who knows her personally.

This is tragic, and horrible. I agree with SGB.

Have been avoiding this story all day as I find this sort of thing so tragic and upsetting. And it's just been brought home to us as it turns out MrWorkingItOut used to work with the mother and knows her quite well. He is in a quiet state of shock.

I feel so very sorry for her children, her husband, her family, and for her. Such a very sad story.

'People can be so mentally unwell that they are unable to ask for 'help'- and MH services make mistakes- many people go under the radar and go onto commit horrendous crimes against others.'

This is what happened to Andrea Yates, whose vile husband, MIL and church also colluded to hide what they could from anyone who might be able to assert influence on her and/or remove her from having charge of any children, with disastrous results.

Andrea Yates. Badly let down by all who came into contact with her.
Her husband etc managed to 'hide' her away pretty well.

Yes, didn't want her taking those pesky meds so she could get pregnant again and he could ditch her with the kids and go off to work.

Oh, and then leaving her with the children alone so she wouldn't become 'dependent' on him and his mother for her 'maternal responsibilities'.

Then turning it around, 'Well, if she needed supervision why did you release her to me?'

Um, because you, her next of kin and power of attorney, signed her out of a high-level psyche unit so you could go back to work and leave her with the kids, whom she'd told her psychiatrist she had planned to drown just days before because she and they were possessed and all going to hell.

She had been psychotic for years.

Sympathies to MrWorkingItOut, MrsWIO. Shocking for him and all who know her.

sympathies to mr working.

i think that the reason i'd be more likely to think 'what a bastard' about a bloke is that like SGB says they do seem to do this sort of thing to teach the mother a lesson.
women, as i understand it, tend more to do it from a (misguided) protective standpoint. of course we'll see in due course what happened here, but until then i feel for her. apparently she's in hospital with 'serious injuries to her wrists', so that suggests that she tried to end her life as well.

Thanks guys - of course he is not who needs sympathy here but the thought's appreciated. I shouldn't say very much but this is a nice, quiet woman with, he thinks, a history of (understandable) depression post SIDS loss.

oh jeez louise... that's very sad.

have had the first stirrings of "My child is too good for this appalling existance" I can see how these things can escalate to the point where you decide that they shouldn't be made to suffer in it any more.

In the throes of PND I wept until I was unable to breathe properly because my child woke up and I wasn't in the room - he had to cry while I got off the toilet. I punished myself viciously for neglecting him, leaving him to scream. At my lowest point, touching him made me want to be sick because every time I did, I visualised myself fucking it up and dropping him, banging him, harming him.

I took to carrying a knife around with me, to protect us from the imaginary psychopaths on my estate.

In truth, I was most likely the least sane person in a 2 mile radius. In rationality, I can look back on a baby who was perfectly attended to in a warm, clean flat, with clean, appropriate, lovingly made food etc.

Back then I wanted to tear off my own skin for giving my child such a miserable existence.

So, I can see, with a little more madness on the mothers part, and less intervention on the MHteam's part, how this situation could come about.

No pity here. Buta very VERY unwilling empathy, because looking back at that time in my life is like staring into an abyss inhabited by faceless terrors/

Poor children, I really can't imagine their suffering, it is very tragic.

Wrt to the mother, I do feel pity, surely if she had killed with any great malice, if she intended it as revenge etc she would not have gone to the police?

I can empathise very slightly, I had pnd and was suicidal at points. I also had intrusive thoughts, the most prevalent one being whacking my babies head into the corner of the very sharp coffee table. Obviously I didn't do this and sought treatment etc. I can't imagine having a mental illness so severe that I would consider murdering my children, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I have a small experience of the confusion and irrationality of mental illness and would never want to imagine plumbing the depths.

The fact that men who do it are judged differently is imo due to the fact that men are generally judged to have a lesser bond with children than the mother. May be politcally incorrect to say so but ime it is true, ime mothers have a special/greater bond with their children. Not that men who do it can't be mentally ill too, I would wager most men are (if not controlling/abusive fucktards).

I do feel obliquely sorry for this woman - from the perspective that she obviously has a sense of right and wrong - gleaned from the fact that she handed herself over to the authorities.

However, I believe that as an adult she should have taken responsibility for herself and her children and taken action sooner in order to prevent this. As a mother and woman who has dealt with my fair share of mental health issues, I can, hand on heart say, that I would never let things get out of hand to this point. I would have the strength of character to ensure my children were in a safe environment if ever if those depths were ever reached.

I feel desparately sorry for the little mites and their other family (Dad, Grandparents, Aunts and Uncles) - can you imagine the agony they are feeling now.

But Allets it isnt always that easy.I have a lotofe xperience of MG H issues- DH,my aprents,short time in a job working in the field- and it varies so much. We had people who beleived that the GP was a demon,that God was telling them tocommit crimes-completely on a different health and responsibility terrain to where DH was, or most people with MH issues are.

Look, it's all very well to be self-righteous about what you wouldn't do. Frankly, you don't know what you would do if you developed a severe psychotic illness. And, in no way wishing to condemn those who have suffered or are suffering from severe mental illnesses, often the only difference between those people and the ones who do kill their children is the ones who don't kill were helped in time - a friend or family member or HCP spotted the way things were going and intervened. There's usually a chain of little events leading up to something this awful - the person is isolated, or family members are stupid, abusive or dismissive of mental illness; an overworked HCP decides the symptoms are 'not that serious' etc.
Bad shit could happen to you. It could happen to anyone.

Excellent post SGB. Spot on.