To belive that my children are having a great childhood in London?

[mrsruffallo]

Annoying woman at parent and toddler grouip today.
She was noisily proclaiming her intention to leave London before her child turned 5 as it's an awful place to grow up!
I said if not here, where?
There is so much to do, lovely green spaces, much better than being stuck in the middle of nowhere
Turned into quite a lively discussion

Haha!, myredcardigan..you could well be right about Surrey being up its own bum. My sister has the same view, we grew up there. Maybe it's because I'm not that happy up here and am viewing it through rose coloured spectacles?!

Dare I say, the village I'm from is turning very 'new money'...but I still love the place...to walk the streets I used to roam as a child and take my children to the parks I used top play in...Oooh, I'm turning all misty eyed at the thought.

myredcardigan I know at least 2 people living in Wilmslow that think Wilmslow is up its own bum!

Moved back to London with two small children six years ago after an 8 year stint abroad. Found it to be incredibly overcrowded and aggressive. My experience of multiculturalism was that no one chatted at the bus stop anymore and everyone pushed ahead, leaving me and toddler in buggy on the pavement - nice. I suppose it's different if multiculturalism means you have a nice Polish cleaner, daddy works with nice French and Indian colleagues at the bank and you go to a nice Lebanese restaurant as a birthday treat. Oh but naturally you are driven to a nice private or faith school with nice English speaking children because we don't want too much multiculturalism there do we? In fact I think that there is a frightening and growing level of social and educational apartheid in London - a programme not so long ago where the middle class family in Clapham didn't even walk 100 yards in the wrong direction said it all. For all the availability of art galleries and theatres happiness seemed to be changing the kitchen or bathroom every two years.

We have just moved to Suffolk from SE London. My husband earns a very good salary, but we could only afford a tiny terraced house in quite a rough area of London and now own a huge house which we bought for the same price we sold our London house for. It is much quieter here and consequently the children sleep much better and have said they like having less noise around. The schools in our area of London were among the worst in the country and we could not have afforded private school fees. Yes, there is lots to do in London but it is very expensive, quite dirty and there is a lot of crime. Here our streets are litter free and the crime rate is negligible. People are much calmer and more laid back here which has rubbed off on us. We do have some fond memories of London, which we would still like to visit occasionally, but are much happier being based in a small town.

I moved out of London about five years ago because DP got work in a little seaside town. I miss it very much and would much prefer for my DD(who is three)to grow up there like I did. There's more to do, different cultures(where we are is very un-mixed) and just more vibrancy. I very rarely felt unsafe in London, but I would never be out on my own at night here. I spent my entire childhood outside on Hampsted Heath, Richmond, Kew,in museums, seeing plays, etc...but I did have friends who never did any of that stuff. I think it depends on what sort of parents you have sometimes. I miss having the carnival floats going past my house and having the windows vibrate from the base! But I will make the best of where I am right now, and try to appreciate the things about it that London can't offer - that is until I can get home

Bellissima and that this is your experience of London!

Multiculturalism for us means - to give jsut one example - that the children in my daughter's (state, non-faith) school speak 60 different languages, they celebrate Diwali, Chinese New Year etc, Black History Month etc. My daughter is desperate to learn another language because she's so impressed by her many friends who are bi or tri lingual.

We moved back to London after 5 years abroad in Spain where casual and institutional racism is rife and considered acceptable at all levels of society.

You can criticise London for many reasons (I'll accept black snot...) but it is way ahead of most of the rest of the world when it comes to diversity.

staranise - I have never lived in Spain (and wouldn't want to after your words!) but I can assure you that I have lived in two other European capitals and my experience is that, in both, people went to galleries far more often, ate out with their children more often and generally lived more cultural lives than the average middle class family in London. I do salute you for sending your children to a non-faith state school where children speak 60 languages but I'm willing to bet that you are not in the majority of London-based MNers. Nor, if I am totally honest, would I think that 60 different languages in one school is entirely optimal. It seemed to me (and I should add that my own DH is a 'foreigner') that too much has happened too soon in London, leading to an uneasy and overly-aggressive atmosphere as well as reducing the chances of anyone from less affluent areas of the country getting somewhere to live there so that they can find a job (no I'm not getting on a vile BNP anti-immigrant bandwagon here - firstly I was an immigrant abroad and secondly I'm talking about social divisions and massively expensive housing). Diversity is great but ironically I think that London is increasingly isolated from the rest of the country, just as the middle classes are increasingly isolated within London, which is incredibly unhealthy - and finally they do talk far more about flaming kitchen extensions and nursery schools and far less about the latest exhibition than anyone in Paris or Brussels! (you being an honourable exception!).

well there is cultured (which they pretty much are anywhere outside the UK in Europe) and cultural (there is a lot of gratuitous racism in France and Italy that goes unquestioned) - i don't know where you live in London, but where we are, the middle-class parents are all really approachable and tolerant. whether they have anything in common to talk about with the recent immigrants is another matter - that is the real stumbling block, rather than their willingness to accept the fact that people from other countries live alongside them.

I'm another one who is not trying to re-create their childhood - I grew up in a rural location and had a bad experience. I went to a tiny primary school, which sounds blissful to some but it's not blissful if you are bullied relentlessly - you can't get away and make new friends if there are only 5 girls in your year to start with.

As a teenager, I always went out with older boys who could drive - as did other girls I knew from small villages. You would do anything for a lift somewhere.

We live in SE london now, and tbh if we had more money I'd move right into the centre.

Obviously not everyone who grows up in the countryside has my experience and I think it is v different nowadays - schools are more alive to bullying and parents make more effort to take kids to activities/do stuff with them. Some of the posters on here from rural locations sound like they are providing their kids with really magical childhoods!

so, any of you Lunnoners got room for me and my boys to come and stay? Just so we can, y'know, see what all the fuss is about?

I don't live in London - firstly I found it really aggressive compared to the first time I lived there (for 8 years I should add, until the mid-90s) and secondly it was far too expensive. And I'm not saying that the middle classes are intolerant - where have I said that? Or that Belgian or French people cannot be very intolerant (for example many French speaking Belgians in Brussels send their children to Flemish schools. Not particularly to learn Flemish but because most 'recent immigrants' ie from the Mahgreb, are in the French-speaking schools). But then again, before we judge the Belgians, how many middle class people in London (whilst being perfectly tolerant and speaking warmly of 'diversity') send their children to schools that are filled with recent immigrants? (staranise apart) Hence inevitable, and unhealthy, educational apartheid. The reason that no one chatted at the bus stop anymore is that no one spoke each others language. The reason everyone surged forward when the bus came leaving buggy pushers on the pavement is that no one had experience of the cultural norm of queueing - not that they were 'bad' or 'intolerant'.

Bellissima & anabellepity - I think you are both right actually. Londoners do seem to live a more 'suburban' lifestyle than, say Parisians. Maybe this is partly due to the architecture of London and the fact that the middle classes gravitate towards village areas with nice victorian terraces with gardens as opposed to living in a city centre apartment. But most of the Londoners I know are also v approachable and tolerant.

I agree that the obsession with kitchen improvements (it's all basements round here...) knows no bounds and it is probably closely linked with the lack of a decent restaurant culture in the UK.

We lived in one of the more culturally mixed cities in Spain, known for its large immigrant population (both EU and non-EU) but the attitudes of the residents would have seemed out-of-date in the UK 30 years ago. Even the snobbiest, most cliquey mothers I know would not dare say the sorts of comments I used to hear on a daily basis from my Spanish colleagues (all well-educated, very middle-class).

I'm not completely convinced about middle class standard of living being so much better elsewhere either - I can only compare with Spain but if you compare the quality of housing, childcare, maternity rights, average property prices vs. average salaries etc then London would definitely trump the big cities of Spain.

Of course what it doesn't have, and this does make a big difference, is the sun

"For all the availability of art galleries and theatres happiness seemed to be changing the kitchen or bathroom every two years." bellisima - that is one of the things I fled from. I found myself surrounded by materialism at every turn in london. from the silly little trendy design shops on exmouth market selling oh-so-fashionable but quirky table lamps for £100 to the bling display of £500 handbags at the doorway of Bentall's in Kingston. yes there are galleries and museums but the shops are overpowering. and, in part, it was my own weakness and response that I particularly disliked. ok so i never wanted quite such trendy lamps or expensive bags but it seemed to permeate me at some level. make me wonder if i should try harder. out here people do wear wellies, (barely been out of mine for a month!) because their minds are on better things than their footwear.

I'm glad this thread has popped up now. DH and I have been having long converstations about moving back to London. I lived there before I got married, I've almost always worked there, but now I have a long commute from the suburban home counties. DD is 12 months old and we're seriously thinking about moving into London, I've found this really reassuring overall. ALthough it might be a shock moving from a 4 bed house to a 2 bed flat

Of course it's not perfect or even ideal - a £50,000 salary is regarded as low etc, the middle classes exploit the education system to their exclusive advantage but compared to my upbringing, (in a major UK city) where I don't think I ever heard French spoken or knew anyone who was black or American or Japanese (not one black child in a school of 1700+), I much prefer my daughter's school. She knows far far more about the world and world history and culture than I ever did, even when twice her age.

Hatwoman - I'm v much enjoying your posts on this thread.

staranise - yes, the sun is a huge plus point actually - i envy my sibling living out in Dubai for that reason alone

"For all the availability of art galleries and theatres happiness seemed to be changing the kitchen or bathroom every two years." - but that is so Noughties! most londoners have come to recognise that at least for the moment, they are not living in the Land of Plenty and all their kitchens ever needed was a good industrial clean now and again. i think you will find that a lot of builders can only reminisce about those good old days.

as for the handbags in Bentalls, they were only on general display - hardly being forced down your throat like line-dancing in Cornwall.

I think consumerism is endemic in the UK today and outside of London it can be even worse - central Newcastle feels like one big shopping mall now (you should have heard the excitement when Waitrose opened there), and even the smaller pretty towns & cities seem to be dominated by the 24 hour Tescos and the likes of Meadowhall, Bluewater, Metrocentre etc.

And in my part of London at least, the builders are still very busy with kitchen extensions/loft conversions etc if only because people can't afford to move out anymore.

God, I'm depressing myself, I do like where we live, honest.

Pregnant with no 1 and cant wait to raise my family in London.

I dont want my kids growing up never seeing a gay couple, or finding it remarkable when they see someone of a different colour.

I can sort of see why the countryside might be nice for small children, but what on earth do teenagers do? All my friends who grew up in rural areas spent their teenage users drinking cider in a hedge. (and not saying this is causation, just pointing out tecorrelation) an awful lot of them started having sex at 15, 3 years earlier than me!

I loved being a teenager in a big city where I could hope a tube anywhere, visit the ICA, hang out in cafes and go to gigs. London is incredibly diverse and there is so much to do.

the correlation rather.

I grew up in Greenwich. Greenwich Park was like our garden(we lived in a flat).
My work place is in London.
I hate London...really hate it.
Each to their own eh?

pmsl at "as for the handbags in Bentalls, they were only on general display - hardly being forced down your throat like line-dancing in Cornwall."

I also agree that consumerism is not, at all, the perogative of London (and is, hopefully, on the decline). but there is a bit of a scale. what I see is

• London - Exmouth Market and Kingston: silly lamps and overpriced bags as mentioned
• sheffield town centre and other parts of London- noticeably less glitzy, more bargain-stuff
• Meadow Hall - no idea, haven't been there since the 80s but presumably pretty indistinguishable from Bentalls
• my village - the ability to pretend none of the above even exists. shops used to be in my face at every turn. now the fact that they're not even there means I get things like school tights on-line - without walking past the glitz. I know I could have done that before - but I didn't.