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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that schools admissions aren't fair

729 replies

picklepud · 25/01/2010 18:58

This is different from saying that I wouldn't go through the system if my child's local school had religious criteria, but I am feeling a bit sad and up in arms for a friend today. Same old story, her local school (primary) is c of E VA. She's not, and chose not to get baptised or go to church twice monthly. So now she will have to drive to her allocated school. So incidentally will many of the people who got in on religious grounds from way away. I really really would go to church for my dd to get into my local school, so I'm not criticising those who do, but I just don't think it should be necessary. Or that religious commitment should give you priority in a state school. And particularly that the vicar should not pretend for a minute that he (as he said in a newspapaper article) say that this is a school in the heart of the community serving all the children of the community.
I know, I know, some people might genuinely change through exposure to the church but I don't think it's the way for a church to expand its membership. sorry. and sorry it's so long.

OP posts:
tartyhighheels · 26/01/2010 18:41

I also suspect that if there were enough Islamic schools some people (maybe even some of the people that strongly believe that they should have access to C of E and Catholic schools) would be up in arms. Issues of integration may be raised.

I for one (as catholic with girls in catholic va school) would really not object - there is room for all types in the system and it breeds diversity and that can only be a good thing.

i do think it is easy to say lets go back to catchment area only selection but only if you live in a decent area - if you were only surrounded by underachieving schools i guess you would want an additional system to catchment.

ImSoNotTelling · 26/01/2010 18:41

tarty "srrix - not actually true for primary school anyway and not round here. " re forms being signed etc.

You are speaking for your area. But around here for most faith schools you need to provide evidence and/or have a form signed by the priest. it is an inevitable consequence of oversubscription, just as massively inflated house prices are also a consequence of oversubscription.

We need more school places (here anyway). The schools that we have in my borough are all actually fairly good - we are lucky in that respect. But then I suppose you get a sort of super-consequence of loads of families moving into the borough itself, leaving places in boroughs without such generally good schools. And so it goes on and on.

I will attach a typical entrance thingy for all your perusal in a minute

upandrunning · 26/01/2010 18:42

Oh yes quite Tarty: I agree, it's a pipe dream. That's the way it should be though.

gobuddy · 26/01/2010 18:44

I've been looking for an atheist school - but without any success. I much prefer the French system where schools have to be completely non-religious. All our decent local schools are religious and I really don't want db to be indctinated at such an impressionable age.

Peachy · 26/01/2010 18:46

I think churchs chools hould be able to exist if there is already provision for local children that can be walked to first.

My kids attend a faith village school,we areChristian,we are in catchment but I don't understand why localpeopleshould be turned away in favour of children from afar.

not everyone can attend Church weekly- I can't (luckily Vicar appreciatesthis),peoplework shifts... Church attendance is a bogus criteria that should ahve littlerelevance when prioving aplcemnts for taxpayer funded education.

StarExpat · 26/01/2010 18:47

This is mind boggling.
So, you have to brown nose to the vicar, then? Make sure you're "seen" at least when you attend? Weird. Wow, that really makes it all quite meaningful, then, doesn't it? I wonder how many people just go to church and do their best to make sure they are seen and talk to the vicar just to get a school place?

I don't go to church, just thinking...

happysmiley · 26/01/2010 18:48

Grimma, I find it odd that someone who was actively practising a different religion would really want to send their children to a church school. Presumably, they don't feel that they have a choice, like many of the parents on this thread that are surrounded by church schools.

Peachy · 26/01/2010 18:50

Oh and also,afiath school'srepr4esentation of the faith iss tilldependent on individualtake.

SoI am very Quakerish in my faith, but new Headrefused to do non uniformfor Hiti andminimised charity type work, the olf dhead actively disouraged parents fromlesswelloff areas from choosing teh school.

I'drather my children attended a friendly community focussed schoolwith a wide mix of faith than this take on Christianity myself,if only I could access one.

happysmiley · 26/01/2010 18:50

Star, that's exactly why it's such a cause for debate.

ImSoNotTelling · 26/01/2010 18:50

My nearest school:

Admission criteria:
Church of England Children who

  1. are *in care under the provision of Children Act 1989 and if they also meet one of the governors? admission criteria 2-6 below

  2. children whose parents are members of, and ** regularly worship at, xxxx Church

  3. children having brothers and sisters already in the school at the time of admission. Siblings are defined as ?a brother or sister who lives at the same address as a child applying, and may be a full, half or step-sibling by birth or legal adoption.

  4. Children whose parents are members of, and worship at, other Anglican Churches that do not have a church school

  5. Children whose parents are members of, and worship at, other Anglican Churches that do not have a church school

  6. Children whose parents are members of other local Christian Churches. This includes xxx, xxx and xxx

  7. Children who live (a) in the parish of xxx for whom this is the nearest Church of England School
    (b) locally

If in any category there are more qualifying children than there are places available, priority will be given to those living closest to the school, measured in a straight line.

** The governors consider ?regular worship? to be at least two services per month for the past two years. For those who have recently moved into the area, evidence will be required from a former minister.

upandrunning · 26/01/2010 18:53

"I wonder how many people just go to church and do their best to make sure they are seen and talk to the vicar just to get a school place?"

A lot. A lot of very ambitious parents do it.

It's not always hypocritical either. Many people who would consider themselves middle stump CE wouldn't necessarily go to church: but will gain a great deal from the attendance "forced" upon them by entrance requirements.

ImSoNotTelling · 26/01/2010 18:54

Hmm I seem to have bungled that a bit with 4 and 5 but you get the drift. had to edit it as it went all wonky when I pasted it.

So. In my borough. Nearly 60% of schools have these sort of criteria. Most schools are oversubscribed. What;s a girl to do?

oldenglishspangles · 26/01/2010 18:54

isnt - it quite inclusive isnt it

ImSoNotTelling · 26/01/2010 18:55

Note that my nearest christian school only wants christain cared for children. Non christian cared for children are not included. Is that very christian?

tartyhighheels · 26/01/2010 18:57

I have just check our admissions policy and it has changed from last year. It has 11 criteria and not until number 10 do non catholic or catechumens get mentioned (children in care notwithstanding) - it is a much harder criteria than last year. Ours mentions nothing about church attendance whatsoever so you have to be baptised or catechumens - that said I do know that our school is only about 80% catholic.

upandrunning · 26/01/2010 18:59

We did it. I used to go to church every now and then but being young, working odd hours, often hung over on a Sunday, no children, it wasn't regular.

Life changed with children and their baptism: I had the time and definitely the inclination, and lo, it was required of me. It was almost an excuse to go, as I felt a bit drippy doing it otherwise. It was a nice thing to do with the children, and there was a toddler group attached, and there were a lot of good people there.

So I did make sure I went more regularly. But at least I carried on after we got in -- some don't. That's definitely true.

ImSoNotTelling · 26/01/2010 19:01

The criteria get harder and harder as the schools get more oversubscribed. They have to find a way of differentiating.

On another thread we were talking about how some catholic secondaries now say that the child has to be baptised within 3 months, or 6 months, or a year. However eleven years ago when these children were born no-one knew this rule would come into being. So many people cannot go, as they missed the boat with baptism. I suppose they would say that if you haven't been baptised within 6 months or whatever then you're not serious, but it seems very harsh to me. Life, illness, bereavement etc etc etc can all get in the way. Still it is the way all these things are heading.

tartyhighheels · 26/01/2010 19:04

Our local anglican high school (which was in the top 10 and still may be)you have to have gone to weekly services for at least two years - i reckon if you have this sort of dedication then you deserve a place...

Skimty · 26/01/2010 19:05

HappySmily - I don't want to send my child to a church school. However, in my area it is a church school or private. I will get into the church school but I would not get into any of the community schools further away. TBH I'd happily bike/drive if I could.

wubblybubbly · 26/01/2010 19:07

So why not make it 2 years of charity work then? That's dedicated and open to all faiths and non faiths?

upandrunning · 26/01/2010 19:08

But do parents really fail to see the obvious: that while you cannot get your child into the CE school, there is a reason why it's so great, and it's nothing to do with religion.

That reason is the parents. It's the parents who make the school function so well. So if non CE/faith parents want the same level of education, they have to put in that drive and effort, not complain about discrimination. You wouldn't want to get into the school so much if it wasn't CE, because the drive needed to get in would dissipate among all the other schools.

There's really no point complaining: it's like complaining that other parents make more effort than you. I guess the complaining people only want to get in because it's a great school, not for religious reasons. And the reason it's a good school is the effort parents make. So it should be emulated, not moaned at.

happysmiley · 26/01/2010 19:11

Agree wubblybubbly, there are other ways of making parents prove themselves but we don't allow them.

Also noticed that no one is addressing my point on why it discriminating against adults is a no no but it's ok if we're discriminating against children.

wubblybubbly · 26/01/2010 19:11

So I should stand in church and lie then upandrunning?

upandrunning · 26/01/2010 19:13

No: go to the other school and put in truckloads of effort to raise standards. That's what I'm saying. That's what happens at CE schools.

upandrunning · 26/01/2010 19:14

Yes: I understand why you misunderstood. I don't mean emulate the churchgoing: I mean emulate the drive.