to think that schools admissions aren't fair

[picklepud]

This is different from saying that I wouldn't go through the system if my child's local school had religious criteria, but I am feeling a bit sad and up in arms for a friend today. Same old story, her local school (primary) is c of E VA. She's not, and chose not to get baptised or go to church twice monthly. So now she will have to drive to her allocated school. So incidentally will many of the people who got in on religious grounds from way away. I really really would go to church for my dd to get into my local school, so I'm not criticising those who do, but I just don't think it should be necessary. Or that religious commitment should give you priority in a state school. And particularly that the vicar should not pretend for a minute that he (as he said in a newspapaper article) say that this is a school in the heart of the community serving all the children of the community.
I know, I know, some people might genuinely change through exposure to the church but I don't think it's the way for a church to expand its membership. sorry. and sorry it's so long.

Really? Well we must have a straight and narrow vicar. He doesn't sign that form for peopl he doesn't know. He even told me once that some people didn't get in because he didn't tick the right boxes for them. He then said, "What else can I do? I'm not going to lie."

Well, yes its different. The founding fathers had some experience of what strife religious differences could cause and had the good sense to keep religion out of state institutions (even to the extent of never including the word in your spelling tests, Strix? )

Whereas we have a messy historical legacy to deal with. And deal with it we should.

But if it is all down to parental drive then surely those driven parents would do whatever it took under different criteria. If chidren with green noses got in, then green paint would fly off the shelves.

Fair play to the rev. Personally I wouldn't have the front to ask if I hasn't been to church - my friend has a lot of charm and it clearly did the job. Our priest is on the board of governers and looks at all the admissions (which actually i didnt know until after we went to the school) so he is worth schmoozing i guess but he is pretty canny.

According to the Telegraph, around 30% of primary schools are faith schools. A minority, but a rather large one.

I cannot say what the admissions policy is in each of these schools, but it would suggest that around 33% of primary school places are not openly availabe to every child of primary school age.

That cannot be acceptable, surely?

I don't say that faith schools cannot exist, although I do see the argument that religion and school should be kept entirely seperate and all the reasons for it.

My point is that it is wrong to deny a child a place at it's nearest school simply because the parent of the child does not follow a particular relgion.

It's about more than education, it's about community and environment too, as ISNT has said many times, far more eloquently than I can.

My DS has gone to a playschool with his friends and neighbours for the last 2 years, he has is now attending the local faith school nursery, along with his friends and neighbours. However, come reception year, he may well be refused a place because I chose not to stand up in a church and tell a lie.

Here is the moral dilemma, should I just swallow my pride and lie in order to enable my son to continue his education in an environment in which he is familiar and comfortable, where he has friends who live next to us?

It feels wrong to me and decidedly un-christian.

Yes, sure they would, and there would be threads on here about why should I paint my children's noses green.

It's not all about parental drive, but it is a big part of it, and it's a part that's unspoken but largely understood by those who fight their way in.

See now if I had gone to a faith school I would remember to type religeon.

It's true that the main problem is not faith schools, but poverty of really good non-faith schools.

In principle i think it is a good thing that we have faith schools becuase it makes things diverse and produces different sorts of students at the other end. It would be dreadful if it was all the same.

Parental drive is a bit chicken and egg. Once you get into a brilliant school there is often an expectation and a standard that is expected from parents and from children. This is then perpertuated by each following admission. If you go to a crap school chances are no matter how hard you work as a parent or child you are fighting a losing battle or contanstantly fighting against the tide - whether that be other parents, behaviour or just resources.

Despite what some might say in principle i doubt they would refuse a place on principle and send their child to a shit school....

Some do. Some choose to move, or home ed, or decide that for them, a private school is the lesser of two evils.

Choices that not many people are lucky enough to be able to make. Most people have to grin (or gurn) and bear it.

no, the main problem is that Christian schools don't practice Christian doctrine by welcoming children irrespective of their parent's background.

Imagine a Church school that didn't discriminate. To thrive, it would need to demonstrate that this Christianity lark had something to offer the rest of us......

Oh bugger. Religion

Hangs head in shame

expat it depends on the school.

Basically the faith schools are normally linked to a specific church. You get a form to fill in to say you meet whatever the criteria are (they differ from school to school, typical is going to church at least twice a month for 2 years). The priest/vicar fills the form in. They have to recognise you. You might need to produce baptism certificates. You might need to be a formal member of the church. Some schools say the child has to be baptised by a certain age (eg 6 months) to be eligible. If you go to a different church you can get them to fill the form in but you will be further down the list even if it's the same faith.

Some places there is actually a register

Definitely spangles. It's the mass of parental drive that creates momentum. It doesn't mean that all other parents don't care: not at all.

Well.. discrimination isn't quite what it looks like, because of other faiths being put above non-faith.

One of the secondaries near us had a sliding scale - something like, first priority to people who'd been to church 2xper month for two years, second priority for 1xper month ... I forget the exact bands. So they not only kept a register, they did the stats too!

Upandrunning, surely the problem is faith schools because they do get first dibs on all the really driven parents.

As someone further up the board suggested you could seperate the driven parents in other ways (make them paint the school, raise funds, interview them etc) but that's all illegal. Instead you tell apart the driven parents because they're the ones that go to church (or alternatively find the money to pay to go privately).

If there were more ways to prove that you were a "driven parent" (not everyone wants to fake religion and not everyone has the money) there may well be more "driven parents" to go around and more good schools.

I for one would paint a school or bake some cakes for the school fete. But I won't start going to church. So the state sector has lost one "driven parent" in me as I'll do my utmost to pay to go private instead. I'd guess a fair few parents who go private would feel the same way.

Well.. discrimination isn't quite what it looks like, because of other faiths being put above non-faith.

It looks exactly like discrimination if you're a Secular Humanist

It's not just the humanists and athiests that aren't provided for Grimma.

Not sure that there are any state Hindu or Buddist schools and I suspect that demand for the Islamic schools greatly outstrips supply.

I also suspect that if there were enough Islamic schools some people (maybe even some of the people that strongly believe that they should have access to C of E and Catholic schools) would be up in arms. Issues of integration may be raised.

But they will do all that Smiley, once they are in. And the school knows it.

I think your idea is equally discriminatory in that basically it would select all the best parents in the same way.

Grimma: yes, I was just responding to the suggestion that it's discriminatory against all non Christians.

We should go back to all catchment area selection, with faith schools extra to already excellent provision.

Happy, other faiths are sometimes allocated a small percentage of places at some state schools. The one I mentioned with the sliding attendance scale also had about %10 of places if you belonged to a list of 10 particular faith groups - Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, Jains, Zoroastrians... can't remember the rest. For those you had to provide some sort of evidence that you were 'in good standing' with your faith group.

Totally illogical, a Buddhist probably has more in common with a Humanist than with a Christian. But there was no allocation for 'none of the above - rationalist'.

I have to agree with Grimma

Local infant feeds into a C of E VA junior. apparently there's no problem feeding through even if you are a non church attender but I do not get priority at a school further away if I decide that actually I don't want my children to have a daily act of worship etc.

So, I can get into a church school very easily but as an atheist I don't really want to but I have no choice.

i also think that if I were the church I would rather get the non-believing children rather than the children from other faiths. After all, you must have more chance to convert them? Surely a child from a good god fearing family is going to join the faith anyway?