to think that schools admissions aren't fair

[picklepud]

This is different from saying that I wouldn't go through the system if my child's local school had religious criteria, but I am feeling a bit sad and up in arms for a friend today. Same old story, her local school (primary) is c of E VA. She's not, and chose not to get baptised or go to church twice monthly. So now she will have to drive to her allocated school. So incidentally will many of the people who got in on religious grounds from way away. I really really would go to church for my dd to get into my local school, so I'm not criticising those who do, but I just don't think it should be necessary. Or that religious commitment should give you priority in a state school. And particularly that the vicar should not pretend for a minute that he (as he said in a newspapaper article) say that this is a school in the heart of the community serving all the children of the community.
I know, I know, some people might genuinely change through exposure to the church but I don't think it's the way for a church to expand its membership. sorry. and sorry it's so long.

The system is clearly wrong if parents pretend to have faith just to get their children into the school of their choice. Politicians bemoan the lack of integrity in society today whilst perpetuating systems that encourage such behavior.

I blame the government for perpetuating the status quo.

if faith schools were not that great noone would be up in arms. however as they are generally better, people get annoyed! as they are mainly funded by the churches in question, YABU

however I would also like to see a lottery system, where all kids of all background and abilities are spread within their local schools, and reduce the middle class/estate ghettos

fxxxxg mightmare

I think it's odd that religous indoctrination is still a part of any child's education. Shouldn't school should be about teaching a range of subjects and social skills? If parents are actively religous then the child will learn about religon at home and in church.

The system is unfair though. The only really good schools in my area are Catholic and my DS won't have a hope in hell of getting in.

if faith schools were not that great noone would be up in arms
yes they would. If you live in a rural area you get the 'choice' of CofE, RC or travel. Which if you believe in the environment and don't believe in god is tough luck.

as they are mainly funded by the churches in question

No, they are not.

ISNT, at our school 70% of the places go to churchgoers, and 30% are for kids who live closest irrespective of any religeous affiliation. This seems to give a balance. So, if you live and really want that COE education you can get it. If you live across the street and are a devout atheist you too should get a place.

Mamvoo, I agree, but you'll never get that argument past the religious people because they don't see it as indoctrination, they see as an essential imparting of truth, without which the child would be an empty vessel, a lost lamb! The lottery system sounds fair in theory but in practice it could never work on a mass scale. It splits up families, divides communities, causes all sort of complications with travel and childcare and is bad for the environment. Plus, it makes (sometimes wrong) assumptions that a child's intellect/potential/behaviour is entirely dependent on his post code.

People arguing over the issue of faith schools being socially selective might want to look at the Sutton Trust website, which has gathered the data on this issue and has the report available online.

The report demonstrates that the most socially selective schools in Britain are not the Grammar schools, but comprehensive religious schools.

I dont agree that removing religion would widen the division of the classes. Religious schools discriminate. There is enough inequity in the education system as it is. Level the playing field by removing the barriers. Possibly the more people that have the risk of sending their children to a crappy school the more pressure will be put to bear on the education departments to improve standards.

ISNT said:

"The problem here is that "local crappy schools" exist. That is what needs to be sorted out first and foremost. And the number of community places needs to be increased."

This wouldn't work for the church schools though, because if all the community schools were good, and there were plenty of them, they would suddenly lose an awful lot of students, and thus funding."

By all means, yes, the government should do something about the underperforming state schools. Then people who aren't really Christian would stop clawing at the doors of the church schools. We would both be happy. My Christian school would be full of real Christians (well 70%) and your state school would be of a higher standard.

I think all the crazy competition to get into schools is a consequence of so many crappy schools and not because the reliegeous aspect is unwelcome.

Have not read all the posts but I live in Ireland and its near on impossible here not to send your child to a catholic school. Something like 97% of all schools in the country are catholic. It is crazy that people in villages and small towns have no choice and have to send them to a religous school even if they are not religous. Particularly in the light of all the sex abuse scandells associated with the catholic school.

That isnt so bad strix.

If you can imagine living somewhere where the majority of schools were faith and 100% of places went to people who attended the church/synagogue etc x amount for y number of years then maybe you will being to see why it makes me so annoyed.

What is a faith school?
Maintained faith schools must meet the same criteria as other maintained schools. For example, they must:

comply with the statutory Admissions Code
follow the National Curriculum and participate in National Curriculum tests and assessments and are inspected by Ofsted
have fully qualified teaching staff
be run by a governing body composed according to the stakeholder model
promote community cohesion.
Faith schools receive their recurrent funding from their LA in the same way as other maintained schools. In many cases, the faith organisation will have provided the land for the school and, in the case of voluntary-aided (VA) faith schools, remain responsible for any capital work. However, in practice, VA faith schools tend to receive 90 per cent of funding for capital work from the DCSF or their LA. LAs are responsible for capital funding for voluntary-controlled (VC) and foundation (including trust) faith schools.

But ISNT, I thought you said there were also good state non-religeous school within walking distance. But, you still won't get in due to catchment, is this right? How old is your DD/DS? And what is your plan? State? Private? I assume you will no be applying to the faith schools.

Dros, VA schools can set their own entrance criteria.

porca, I would, I fundamentally believe it is wrong to discriminate against people on the basis of religion, just like I think we shouldn't discriminate based on race or sex. And when I say people, I include children. I'd guess that most people on this thread agree that discriminating against adults is wrong (certainly haven't seen anyone try and argue that it's not so far) but for it seems that some people don't believe this should apply to children. Supposedly it promotes social cohesion to keep children of different faiths apart.

Christianity is supposed to be an evangelical religion. My devout Christian friend and I are agreed that only credible position for Church Schools would be to treat those not of their faith equally.

In fact, were they to dip into the New Testament (perish the thought) I think they'd find it a sounder theological proposition to prioritise the children who aren't taken to Church.

If they really care about our salvation, rather than keeping their last bit of earthly power in this country, that's what they should do.

But they don't, so I despise them, and am so glad that there was an alternative in our town.

Sorry, only read a bit on here so far... but, I'm a teacher - at an international school and I'm from America so I'm not 100% clear on all of the non-separation between church/state that happens with schools here...
But, it was mentioned that priority is given to families who worship at a church of england or at another church? How do they know this? Do you sign in at church here? Do they have lists of people who "belong" to churches? Pardon my ignorance. I'm really just curious as to how they know that someone does or does not attend church regularly (and why this makes a bit of difference, but that's another story).
How strange that religion so strongly influences school places.

stix - my issue with the religious school less to do with selection to do with diversity. Those of a particular faith should be able to practice their faith but it should be seperate from the broader education other than religious studies. Perhaps time could be set aside for faith specific activities within the school week. Seperation on the basis of religion or culture does not reflect the society we live in today. That goes for private faith schools too. We live in a society not a sect and should be educated as a society.

But VA schools are very much in the minority no?

Star, I don't think normal churchgoers 'sign in' but evidently those who are hoping to get their kids in do. I know, its bizarre.

The US manages perfectly well with a secular state school system, parents can indoctrinate instill their cherished beliefs without the state needing to do it for them.

Star, there is a form for the vicar/priest to complete when you apply for admission to the school. If he/she doesn't know you, you are unlikely to get that form. And without that form, no church place for you.

The US is an entirely diffferent situation where the separation of church and state is one of the founding principles of the nation. There is no reliegeon of any kind in any state school.

Ironically I spent my primary school education every morning putting my right hand on my heart, looking at the flag and saying "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. "

Technically, you are not allowed to say "under God" but we did.

srrix - not actually true for primary school anyway and not round here. I know that this is the case for a really good high school here though - and if you want one of those foes then you go to the vicarage and ask for one - they can refuse if they don't know you but most don't. My friend did this and had never been to the church part from harvest festival and the vicar was most obliging. That said, not sure our Priest would do that. He knows the score.

They discriminate, but in reality the selective criteria/um? is not faith, or even wealth, but parental drive. I think that's why the schools are often better schools in the end.

And really, if faith schools are so wrong in principle then why does everyone want a place???? Despite what some might say in principle i doubt they would refuse a place on principle and send their child to a shit school....