marriage blah blah blah

[marantha]

Well, here we go again- same old arguments rage on about the marriage.

"Married people are better than the unmarried"

"Cohabitees should be treated as married after a certain time".

In their own way, both statements are wrong.

They fail to grasp what marriage is in the cold light of day.

"Marriage is a religious thing"- er, no, not necessarily.

"You're more committed if you're married" Well, maybe, but not all married people are committed and not all committed people are married.

"It's about bringing up of children"- well 50-year-olds marry.

The ONLY constant thing about marriage in the UK is a legal aspect. You marry and you are making a statement that you wish the outside world, tax authorities and the old guy over the road that you are a couple- because they are not psychic and will not know otherwise (hence cohabitee rights being unworkable).

It's time we grew up as a society and took marriage for what it is i.e. a legal thing and put the hearts and flowers bull and value judgements in the bin.

Oh i've got raging pmt. Marantha it was a bit out of order telling you you were Fucking boring. I should have just thought it. But you do go on like a stuck record.

Agree with SGB and the OP.

There are lots of cultural/religious aspects to marriage, but ultimately it is a legal contract. That is why it is "public" and can be recognised by the state in ways that co-habitation cannot.

It's also why the "it's just a bit of paper" argument is so stupid. A will is "just a piece of paper", so is an employment contract, but there's no way I will work for someone without one.

Bits of paper can be pretty damned important.

And if married couples are treated as individuals for tax purposes, then they should be treated as individuals for all financial purposes relating to the state - that means that there can be no assumption that they will look after one another if one of them needs help.

mistletoekisses I do not deny for a second that you married your husband because you love him, however, the ACT of getting married is a legal thing.

I'm sorry but it is- what is the signing of the register all about otherwise?

Why does God need a signature?

skidoodle Your last paragraph is absolutely correct.

People don't take their spouse to work with them, do they?

You will learn a hard lesson about what marriage ACTUALLY is about should you, like me have the misfortune to get divorced.

jasper Sorry, but you are being a bit cryptic here- what do you mean exactly?

marantha I completely agree with your pov that the only thing marriage REALLY is is a legal contract.

Of course most of us do NOT get married with this in mind. We make marriage about something else - love, romance, security, an aggreement not to shag other people. That's all fine and dandy if you live happily ever after

But it if all goes wrong and you wish to get out of this union that no longer contains the love you based it on in the first place that is when you find out the legalities of the situation.

Couldn't agree more.

Our wedding was a statement to each other and for us a natural progression of our relationship. Things we value we celebrate/ For us it was a celebration of our relationship that we chose to share with our friends and family. We chose to have that celebration in a church because that was important to me because of my christian background. People who dont do what we did are usually exercising their right to do so. It has nothing to do with what we did. The only people who are bothered about the discriptions are those not confident about their own decision as far as I am concerned. There was no legal consideration / tax or otherwise consideration for our decision. If you choose to believe / subscribe to the other cliches that is your choice.

oldenglishspangles The reasons WHY an individual marries differs from person to person e.g. a person stated above that they married for immigration purposes (they may or may not have been joking- but people DO marry for these reasons) however, there is no avoiding the fact that marriage ITSELF is a legal thing.

How anyone can deduce otherwise is something I don't understand.

I married to get a visa. Not exactly a statement we made to each other, more one made to Her Majesty's Immigration Office. Still love dh. Wouldn't have needed a visa if I hadn't loved him.

Marriage is the blessing of a union in the eyes of God! whatever God that may be

oldenglish I am glad things are working out for you. You married for the same reasons I did (in a church)

However when I got divorced I realised there was a lot of legal stuff about being married that had to be undone. Stuff I had never thought about when I got married, because of course I never thought I would end up divorced!

Whoever mentioned France is right.

Religious ceremonies are not legally binding.

You have to have a contrat du mariage (pre-nup) before getting married as well, otherwise you have (I think) the default state version which is 50/50 split.

Yes, for me getting married was a lovely ceremonial thing to say I loved my DH and I wanted to spend the rest of my life with him. When we went to sign our own contrat du mariage I cried buckets in the solicitor's office as I felt it was taking the 'romance' out of it, especially having to decide what assets I was not going to share with him. I sobbed, insisting that we were getting married for life, in front of God and that was enough for me, and that I would share EVERYTHING with Dh until the day I died.

BUT it was the right thing to do and I have no idea why they don't implement the same system in England - practically it makes so much sense.

So I agree, marriage is a legal thing - and having a contract, in whatever form, that protects us, our families, and above all our children is essential in that context.

(sorry very rambling and incoherent)

I never said an Islamic marriage was a legal marriage, but it is still a marriage (that was my point). There are a few people who choose to be religiously married first and foremost, and then they may eventually choose to have a legal contract, or they may not. Marriage can be about different things for different people, it just depends where your values lie.

If a couple get married in the CofE, its still a legal contract, but done with a religious front. Same with most Christian weddings in the UK (the main example there is you can get married in a Catholic church, but somehow can get divorced).

So for some, getting married can be about getting respect and not having children 'out of wedlock', for some it can be for the legal advantages covered in posts above, for others it can be purely religious between the couple and God and as many have mentioned for love. I'm sure there are many other reasons too... you can't say its only for legal reasons.

I agree with the OP & SGB. It's a legal thing. Of course add on the lovehearts and flowers after, but you can have them with or without the little bit of paper.
If you are in a strong cohabiting relationship, and seek to sort out the inheritence/guardianship/property/pension issues legally why not just get married? Legalities all sorted. You don't need a big white dress and Great Aunt Maude. Just a trip to the registrar and a bag of chips on the way home. Unless, of course, you are idealogically opposed to the concept of marriage. In which case I would say your thinking is a little outmoded, it is, or can be, simply a practical way of sorting your affairs.

thats an excellent point bumble - i would assume then muslims who get married have to have a registry office marriage to recieve the same rights as CofE or Catholic marriages?? But as you so rightly say, their marriage is a marriage in the most important part, in the eyes of their God. for me the legalities of marriage are secondary, the thing that might make people think, hmmm, youve got a point there we best get married to protect the assets - but thats not a real marriage for someone who has religious beliefs

Can't help a little Biblical quote, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's".
Church and state are seperate, rightly, so it's up to the couple who they want to recognise their union and make arrangements accordingly.

In Switzerland too, you have to marry "legally" first, at the registry office, and only then can you go get married in a church (if you want to). If you get divorced, it's a completely legal thing too: If you did marry in a e.g. catholic church, your divorce will ONLY be legal - in the eyes of the catholic church, you will still remain married, unless you apply to the pope for annullment.

Unlike France, there are three basic "asset-sharing" models you can choose from, one of them being the default. In contrast to the UK (as I understand it) the default in Switzerland is NOT a 50-50 sharing. The model is called "sharing of gains" (or similar). It means that everything you individually own before you get married remains yours alone, as well as everything you get during marriage but that is specifically directed at you - such as an inheritance from your parents. That is yours, and if you split, you take it all with you. However, everything that you earn during marriage, is shared 50-50 in case of a divorce. This means that if a pauper marries a millionnaire and gets divorced two weeks later, the pauper gets none of the millions. On the other hand if two poor people marry, and one of them earns lots and lots and becomes rich whilst the other takes care of the house and kids, if they divorce, they both get half of the assets. Makes a lot of sense to me!

I totally agree that in law, marriage is a legal contract and nothing more. However that doesn't say anything about what it means to individuals who enter into marriage.

marantha - ONE aspect of marriage is a legal aspect but that is only part of the picture and should not be taken as the definition of marriage. Take for example the statement a box is a box - 'box' means nothing without context - A box containing food and medical supplies for a starving child is emergency aid. The box that carries the bodies of the dead to their final resting places is coffin and a symbol of death. They are both boxes but to say they are the same is wrong. They are not interchangeable. Marriage has a context to each individual so is does not follow that everything you are saying is true or correct.

Jasper as a child of a broken home both nast divorces I understand the pain of divorce. The reality is even if you are not married if you have joint property / children / finances and a bitter seperation there will be legal issues that have to be addressed. Often the non legal aspects of a divorce or separation are more damaging and painful than the legal. Married or not some people have a capacity for cruelty which is incomprehensible.

i married dh within a year of finishing university. i was a little waif who looked about fourteen and he was a bit older so we would get funny looks sometimes. i have never dated anyone else and even if we were to split up (highly unlikely), i would never date anyone else.

i loved being this teeny little bride showing off my big rock at work to my nasty fifty-something spinster boss. i also loved having my own dining room and getting to grips with entertaining

I understand completely that people marry for different reasons (usually because they love each other, but not always).

But sometimes you don't realise the exact nature of what something is until it goes wrong.
I'm afraid to say that the divorced people I know of did not have to tell the vicar, the florists, or the person who made the bride's dress they were separating. They could have, of course, but it was optional.

God- it always surprises me why the religious say they are marrying in the eyes of God- why does HE require a marriage certificate for two people to love one another? It makes no sense to me.
Isn't God just happy that two people are devoted to one another? Why does he require documentation?
Any that's besides the point, you don't have to tell God when you're divorced- if he is omnipotent, he'll know anyway.

No, when the s**t hits the fan, it's lawyers that get involved to end a marriage, therefore marriage is a legal thing.

Marantha, what is your actual gripe with marriage?

I don't get the point of your post at all. Is it just so you can be right?

No gripe with marriage at all- why would I have a gripe with marriage- it is a legal thing. It is what it is- you do it or you don't.

why you posting about this....again??

marriage is what it is....whats the point of this? you're makiing yourself come across as a bit of trouble maker...