My child is afraid of dogs - any tips?

[longforasnooze]

Hi, my nearly 4 year old has been afraid of dogs for as long as I can remember, though he has never had a bad experience, and certainly we are not fearful so no nervousness from me. He would cross the road when he saw one coming, leap into my arms if one got close and make a lot of fuss. Any kind or size of dog, doesn't matter, he panics. I know fear is irrational but....no reasoning will placate him.
My partner wanted a dog for his birthday and has always wanted one and we felt my son was now old enough to cope, and we decided to get a puppy so it would be totally unthreatening. We reasoned that once the unknown element was gone he would warm to it and think it was fun.
We are now 4 days into him being at home, he is a gentle and quiet little dog and very curious about the children. The baby doesn't care, but there is no improvement in my 4 year old, who will barely be in the same room as it, climbs up to the highest point from it if he is, and is generally being panicky and squealy. We have confined it to the kitchen so he feels safe in 'his' spaces, offered endless rewards for stroking it, or being friendly, struggling to find behaviour towards it we can praise, reasoned on all logical fronts, watched Scooby Doo!!
Does anyone have any experience of helping their child through their fear of dogs so they can become friends. I would hate the dog to get older, see his fear and then think he was the boss. Any helpful hints greatly appreciated.

[Morloth]

I used to let my dog on the sofa. DH wasn't so happy about it. It was really funny - like the dog and I had a little "secret" when he was at work.

So DH in house = Dusty sleeping at feet. The minute the door closed after him in the morning she would jump up onto her spot and give me a big grin (Keeshond) and I would pretend I couldn't see her. As she had a 6th sense when he would be home she would of course be waiting at the door for him, so never got busted.

Miss my Dusty!

[claw3]

Iggypiggy, im not understanding the need to let a dog on the settee and 'humanise' it, its a dog!

He 'asked' to be let up? what did he say!

[Morloth]

I don't think there is any harm in a dog on the lounge if you don't mind it there. The cat sleeps on the lounge and we have been known to change course and sit somewhere else if she is sleeping.

[claw3]

Morloth, for most dogs it isnt/wouldnt be a problem. But for some, especially where children live in the household, it could be.

Dogs and children to me = better safe than sorry.

[iggypiggy]

Claw - it isn't to humanise the dog i just like him snuggling up to me on the sofa sometimes. It is for my benefit not his.

Do you have a dog?! It is very easy to tell what dogs want sometimes. He stands and rests his nose on the sofa if he was to get up - I either say 'up up' and he gets up, or I say 'settle down' and get goes to his bed instead.

You do know that Pack theory is not widely accepted any more?

[Morloth]

Has it iggypiggy? That seems weird as anecdotal evidence implies that it works quite well (with kids as well as dogs).

[midori1999]

Claw3, my dogs can tell the difference between a pheasant and a rabbit at quite a distance, so I am damn sure when I am stood right in front of their noses they can tell I am not a dog.

And yes, Iggypiggy is right 'pack theory' is now not widely accepted and viewed as very old fashioned and incorrect. The original study on which is was based is now proven to be massively flawed and it is proven that dogs do not behave like the original 'pack theorists' thought they did.

[claw3]

Yes i have a Labrador. Letting a dog on the settee is treating it like a human in my opinion, no matter whose benefit it is for.

Still we will have to agree to disagree.

The pack theory makes perfect sense to me, is not widely accepted anymore, by who?

[dreamingofsun]

dog on sofa=smelly sofa. ours no longer allowed there and i was surprised how quickly she understood. we always feed ours after us and she doesn't eat untill she gets the Ok from whoevers feeding her

[longforasnooze]

To be honest the issue isn't really so much with the dog, my partner is training him well, and so far he has been quite good, is house training well, responding to no etc, and now understands faces are out. I'm sure there is a pack element and he does need to know we are all 'above' him and things are on our terms. If the sofa becomes an issue we'll address it. Personally I don't want him upstairs ever, or unsupervised downstairs for now.
It's really my sons fears I wanted to address. Thinking about it he is a little funny about animals despite endless trips to the zoo, and a love of nature programmes, he'll watch dear ol' david and be fascinated, but because they are all an unknown he has become wary. It's change as well isn't it, when the baby arrived he wanted to send him back too, and when we moved he kept asking to move back, at this age they like what they know. It will all become normalised soon and if we handle it well they'll be good friends, and my son will have a rational approach to dogs, and not lose all road sense when we are out!
I am liking the NLF site, makes sense. Thanks

[iggypiggy]

Well a quick search of google on pack theory will throw up a number of articles - but dog behaviourists do not support it - the ones I have worked with are very clear on this. It is probably best to do your own research and base you decision on that (which is what I do)

Not best reference - but something here:
in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070320192906AASLPgf

And an article wirtten by a researcher here: www.psyeta.org/jaaws/full_articles/7.4/verkerkhove.pdf

Claw I agree that we will prob have to disagree but your ideas on humanising dogs sound very old fashioned to me.

[claw3]

Midori, i didnt say a dog thinks that you are a dog, i said you are part of the pack.

[longforasnooze]

Agree on smelly, have put washable throws on! In the long term it may be out for safety reasons, though in the evening when it is just us I think it's fine. He is meant to be a loved family pet and not a guard dog. For now he has just left his home and other brothers, so he is going to want some companionship isn't he, not to sit alone in the kitchen of an evening.

[claw3]

Iggypiggy, if you dont believe in pack mentality, why does your dog need to get permission from you before he is allowed on settee or upstairs etc?

[Morloth]

Definitely get him plenty of training, an obedient dog is such a pleasure and it will be much easier for your DS as well if he can give the dog an instruction and have it followed.

[midori1999]

Claw3, why does pack theory make perfect sense to you?

It is not widely accepted by the 'doggy community' as a whole. Pack theory and domincance theory go hand in hand. Pack theorists believe that plenty of unwanted dog behaviours can be put down to the dog being 'dominant' as it wants to be or thinks it is 'pack leader'. However, we have now discovered that it is far more likely that the dog is behaving that way as the behaviour is somehow being re-inforced in the dogs environment.

If pack/dominance theory is correct, I often wonder how my dogs, one of which is a very good working gun dog, do what I want when asked and exactly when asked, despite the fact they are usually fed before me, allowed onto sofas, sleep on my bed sometimes, given food from my plate, allowed to jump up to greet me, allowed through doors before me etc, because according to pakc theorists, my dogs should therefore all be 'dominant' and therefore not give a jot about what I ask them to do, nor should they do it.

This explains it better than I ever could:

http://positively.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=600

[longforasnooze]

I imagine, like children, people have their own ideas about raising dogs. I'll research, thanks for links, and P and I will discuss and agree. We don't as yet however, have a problem with the dog! As we don't actually know what the dog thinks, we kind of have to do what works don't we, and adapt? I have two completely different children what has worked for one has not for the other and vica versa, so system is perfect.

[claw3]

Midori, because you have established yourself as pack leader?

Once established as pack leader, you can do what you like and the dog will follow.

The problems occur when no one is established as pack leader, or there is confusion and the dog tries to take control.

[iggypiggy]

Good link midori claw because I make the rules in our house - not him - this doesn't 'support' pack theory, although I'm sure you will say it does - it is how the relationship between me and my dog works because i have given him boundaries. He is a working gun dog too (part trained so far) and is very responsive - i can't see how pack theory works if he is so good yet he thinks he 'dominates' me because I let him on the sofa...

longfora sory to have gone off on a tangent on your thread. I hope your 4 year old starts to enjoy his puppy soon.

[iggypiggy]

claw how much research have you done into pack theory though? Why do you believe it so much

[longforasnooze]

Read that article Midori, made total sense.

[claw3]

Would also add have you watched the 'dog whisperer'? he seems to be making a fortune out of the pack leader theory.

All the dogs i have seen him 'treat', the owners seems to forgot that the dogs are dogs and are treated more like babies, than dogs.

Lots of affection and no discipline. I once watched a dog biting a person who dared to sit on the settee AND THE DOG STAYED UP THERE, WHY THE PERSON HAD TO MOVE!

[mathanxiety]

I don't think you should have got a dog, even a puppy, if you knew your DC was so afraid. There's no need to put a child or a puppy in such a situation just because a grown adult wants a dog. Think your P should have put the child first and also that you should rethink the idea and try to place the puppy elsewhere.

[claw3]

Iggypiggy, exactly YOU decide, makes you pack leader.

I didnt say a dog will dominate you just by letting him up on the settee. I said it can cause confusion for SOME dogs.

[midori1999]

ahhh, 'The Dog Whisperer'....

Are you aware that not only do these techniques work because in most cases, the dog is too scared to react anymore, so 'shuts down' and that most dog behavioruists, and that the welfare uissues surrounding CM's methods are so vast, various organsisations, including the BVA, RSPCA, Dogs Trust APDT etc etc have recently made apress release and set up a website to state exactly why the methods used by CM are a welfare issue?

You can read it here if you're interested:

www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/press-statement.php

And ho wexactly have I established myself as pack leader with my dogs? Surely, according to pack theory, the fact I let them on my bed, sofa, eat before me etc should make them think they are pack leader?