My child is afraid of dogs - any tips?

[longforasnooze]

Hi, my nearly 4 year old has been afraid of dogs for as long as I can remember, though he has never had a bad experience, and certainly we are not fearful so no nervousness from me. He would cross the road when he saw one coming, leap into my arms if one got close and make a lot of fuss. Any kind or size of dog, doesn't matter, he panics. I know fear is irrational but....no reasoning will placate him.
My partner wanted a dog for his birthday and has always wanted one and we felt my son was now old enough to cope, and we decided to get a puppy so it would be totally unthreatening. We reasoned that once the unknown element was gone he would warm to it and think it was fun.
We are now 4 days into him being at home, he is a gentle and quiet little dog and very curious about the children. The baby doesn't care, but there is no improvement in my 4 year old, who will barely be in the same room as it, climbs up to the highest point from it if he is, and is generally being panicky and squealy. We have confined it to the kitchen so he feels safe in 'his' spaces, offered endless rewards for stroking it, or being friendly, struggling to find behaviour towards it we can praise, reasoned on all logical fronts, watched Scooby Doo!!
Does anyone have any experience of helping their child through their fear of dogs so they can become friends. I would hate the dog to get older, see his fear and then think he was the boss. Any helpful hints greatly appreciated.

[lucyellensmumagain]

oh, this has moved on a bit!

Im on the sofa fence really about dogs on sofas. I think i take the stance that - if you aren't going to want a big slobbering hound on your sofa, moulting with potentially muddy feet - dont be letting it up there as a puppy.

Im not sure about the pack leader thing, but you certainly have to let your dog know that you are the "boss", if pack leader is the buzz word of the moment then fine. There are some very subtle ways of dominating dogs and some pretty subtle ways of dogs dominating humans. I have always said, no dogs on sofas no no no no no! No no and thrice no - where is my jack russel right now? On the sofa!! . However, he does understand GET DOWN, so will get down when told - trouble is, he will conveniently forget and get back up there as soon as my backs turned, i really dont mind - but my rottie was never on the sofa, for obvious reasons. Also, when we first got him he had ishoos, and he did get up on the sofa and he did snarl and bare his teeth when we pushed him off - we put our foot down quite firmly on that one - dog not on the bed, dog not on the sofa, dog most definately not sat at top of stairs freaking me out by trying to outstare me through the banisters!

Its horses for courses i think.

Im still a bit about getting the dog while the lad is still scared - a bit fool hardy really, because if it doesn't work out, thats another dog needing a new home and the dog homes just cannot cope with the numbers lately.

[ImSoNotTelling]

The problem with dog phobia is that quite a lot of dogs when out and about do run up and jump on you and so on. So it's hard to get over the fear when it keeps being reinforced in that way.

It's probably more realistic to try and get them used to dogs they know, who you know are well trained and obedient and predictable, than just generally try to make them like dogs.

[claw3]

Oh dear, the dog is on the dining room table being spoon fed while they eat dinner qne wearing clothes on the TV!

[lucyellensmumagain]

i'm skeptical about the whole pack thing, i do think that its an OK theory, but nothing really happens in a domestic situation that a wild dog would encounter, i mean, if you want to stretch it, ok - the pack leader brings the food? Do they? im not sure? Doesn't the whole pack hunt then the pack leader eat first - not quite sure i want a pack of dogs around tesco. I am not keen on ceasar milan, i was always impressed about how he got dogs to walk well on the lead - yeah well, i wouldnt pull if i had a spiked collar on either!!

Victoria stillwell, another TV dog behaviourist actually wrote a really good artical in dogs today, saying that clearly the training of dogs isnt straightforward and wont happen overnight, so what you see in the programs are snippets and may have taken months to achieve. There is no quick solution.

Our rottie came with too many issues to mention - we spent a FORTUNE on dog psychologist, and trainers. The dog psych was a peach - he told us not to feed the dog the for the evening before, he came round with a packet of rich tea biscuits in his pocket and offered it to the dog every five minutes or so - then he had the audacity to expect us to believe that it was because he was the most dominant person in the room! no mate, you had a packet of biscuits in your pocket and the dog hadn't eaten for two days! I had called a dog shrink in because he had aggression issues and i wanted a second opinion as to whether i could get him right. We then did some one to one training with an ex police dog trainer - he was very good and didn't use all this psych speak. We just sort of followed his lead, but what got him right in the long run was him learning to trust us, learning that we weren't going to take his food away or beat him. And that no, mummy was not a shake toy! This was pre DD!!

I think most people find their own way with their dogs. We had a rottie before our nutty one and we went down the formal training route and we had him from a pup, he did really well. but i learnt more from the loon!

[midori1999]

Claw3, Victoria Stillwell is a very good behaviourist. One of th elinks i psoted was to her forum. I missed the start of the programme, but I strongly suspect she hasn't tried to suggest the reason the dog is like that when people try and get on the sofa is due to it thinking it is 'pack leader'.

At the end of the day, I don't really care what people believe as long as their dogs are happy an dsafe. However, pack an ddominance theories lend themselves to training methods which are detrimental to the dog.

[claw3]

Well the advice this dog 'expert' has just given to the husband, to enable him to be able to sit on the settee without the dog biting him is instead of walking forward, to walk backwards towards the settee.

The dog wants to be in control, but by walking backwards, he is acting like a dog and being submissive and 'is speaking dog language'

Im assuming he is acting like a dog, because dogs understand these signals?

[longforasnooze]

math anxiety. You don't know anything about my family, I didn't ask for opinions on how to raise my child, quite explicitly asked people if they had any experience and advice for how they had managed their child's fear. Thank you, I have no end of compliments about what a bright, happy and gentle soul he is, or would you like to call social services! I am not even going to continue. We have only had the puppy 4 days, maybe you give up after such a short time, I personally intend to persevere at least a few more weeks.

[claw3]

Midori, thats the one.

Well she is saying the dog is trying to run the house (wants to be the leader?)

and if we are not part of a pack, why would she be advising the husband to act like a dog to get the message across?

[midori1999]

Claw3, she didn't say the dog wanted to be in control, she said the dog was nervous and if the husband backed onto the sofa it would give the dog more confidence. And yes, dogs turn away from each other/break eye contact in order to be submissive, no one is suggesting you don't communicate with a dog in ways it understands.

However, what she didn't say is 'the dog is trying to be pack leader, you need to show it who is pack leader by pinning it down or whatever other clap trap CM would suggest.

It worked, didn't it? Everyone was able to sit on the sofa with the dog, which is what they wanted and all using a method which was non confrontational to the dog and therefore not risky to the owners.

[longforasnooze]

I'm leaving my thread. There is some helpful advice, thank you. For those of you who now think it's time to lecture me on how to raise a child. Thank you, that is advice I do not need and is just annoying me, I could defend myself for hours but really don't feel the need. we are good parents, and my son is happy.The dog is here and will stay and we will all be fine, as we have always been!

[midori1999]

I didn't see her say that. If the dog is 'running the house' why is she telling the husband to behave 'submissively'? Surely that will only therefore reinforce to the dog it is in charge and therefore exacerbate the problem.

We are not part of the pack. I am also not French. However, if I go to France, I might try and talk to a French person in French in order that they might understand me better. It doesn't mean they will think I am French though, does it? Simply because we might try and communicate with dogs in a way they understand, it doesn't make them think we are part of their pack, it simply means they udnerstand us better. There are only dogs in a dog pack.

[claw3]

She said at the start, that the dog was 'running the house' 'the boss' and wanted to be in control.

I said i believed in the pack theory, not CM's methods.

I think we are agreeing and this has got confused with CM somewhere along the way, i believe that dog's do view members of the family as part of the pack, i dont agree with pinning dogs down etc, etc.

[mathanxiety]

True, I don't know anything about your family except details you yourself have mentioned, and why would you have mentioned any of it if not because maybe deep down you feel there's a problem and the details might somehow be relevant?

You can't just ignore the feelings and experiences of a child and hope he'll get over himself, and that goes for any child, not just yours. Being afraid of dogs, not dealing stoically or resiliently with change, and being bright and lovely and gentle are not mutually exclusive -- your DS sounds like a trooper, a great little kid, who has a lot on his plate.

I would give up after such a short time, tbh. It would be easier for the puppy and for the child. And this is about the puppy and the child, right, not just about you and doing what you and the DP want? I wouldn't have got the dog in the first place. I think you are of the opinion that stubbornness in dealing with a child will get you places where sensitivity will not, and I think you are wrong.

[claw3]

Midori, as far as im aware 'the pack theory' is about being assertive with a dog, not aggressive.

[dreamingofsun]

anxiety - if she immediately gives up what sort of message is that giving the child? its telling it not to persevere and to give up a the first hurdle. that is also not fair to the dog and from what the op is saying things are improving already - so i don't understand why you'd give up at this stage. plus its saying yes you are right to be scrared of dogs and re-inforcing this. a four year old should have trust in their parents judgements.

longsfor - please can you give us an update in a few weeks (if you can bear it) as my guess is that things will be going swimminglee - except for things being chewed and wet patches maybe

[midori1999]

claw3, 'pack theory' is a theory whereby we believe we are part of the dog pack, and therefore must remain 'pack leader' of that pack. That entails behaving like a dog in order to remain pack leader. The problem is, what pack theorists believe to be dog behaviour, isn't. Dogs do not 'bite' each other in order to assume dominance over others, Mothers do not bite puppies in order to establish dominance or reprimand them, the pack leader would not go through openings (doorways) first, the pack leader would not eat first usually either. Dogs also do not 'alpha roll' others unless they are about to kill them. So, pack theory is massively flawed and the methods behavioruists who believe in it emply to control dogs are based on frightening and controlling the dog, and are not without side effects for the dog or danger to the owners who watches a TV programme and decides to use them.

I don't debate that a dog can be in control, but I refuse catagorically to believe that Victora Stillwell said the dog in the programme wanted to be in control since that goes against her whole ethos.

And you didn't answer the question about why, if the dog thought itself to be 'in control' and 'pack leader' it was suggested the owner act in a way the dog would percive as submissively? The fact is, the do gmay be in control, it doesn't mean the dog thinks it is.

[ImSoNotTelling]

dreamingofsun do you have any phobias? Or animals that you are scared of?

Snakes, spiders, scorpions, anything like that?

Just out of interest.

[midori1999]

and in fact, the latest research suggests domestic dogs are not pack animals at all:

www.jeandonaldson.com/jeans-blog-mainmenu-51/64-are-dogs-pack-animals

[dreamingofsun]

snakes and another thing that i have to do at work sometimes that i'd rather not go into - not sure if they are phobias though. and i suppose if i say that snakes are nothing like dogs you will say thats not valid. but she doesn't say her son has a phobia. i suppose i see the fun my 3 boys have with our dog and think with a bit of intelligent handling (which this initial question indicates is the case) he will experience that too

[Vallhala]

ImSoNotTelling wrote:

"Did I read a post earlier wrong - someone with a DC with a phobia of pigs so they put them in a pen with a load of pigs and ignored their pleas to get out, so that they knew who was boss?

Did i read that wrong?"

Yes ISNT, you did read it wrong.

There was no phobia.

There was no "putting" DD anywhere.

There was certainly no putting DD in any pen with one or "a load" of pigs.

I did ignore the demands to get out of the environment, which was in itself a short-lived experience, lasting 1 to 2 minutes. My DD wasn't going to die for being near pigs, in total safety, for 2 minutes.

There was no desire to make DD "know who was boss".

As I also said, DD has grown into a perfectly well adjusted young woman with hopes of being a vet in a large animal (ie farming) practice... where she will no doubt meet and treat plenty of pigs!

Thank god the OP isn't listening to the voices of hysteria here, suggesting that she finds another place for her pup to go or I would quite possibly be trying to find a rescue place for yet another MN-ers unwanted puppy. Really clever advice that.

[ImSoNotTelling]

Oh, maybe you didn't put it very well. That was how it read to me on the first, second and third readings, which was why I was surprised, to say the least.

"My DD was the same with pigs as a toddler. Don't ask me why, both DC were brought up with dogs and cats and farm/zoo animals from birth, but she hated them with a passion and used to throw a wobbly when she met them!

My response was not to give in to her demands to be taken out of the pig enclosure at the farm (or remove them, which would have been pretty difficult!). It didn't take long before DD1 realised that I was the one in charge and not her and that the pigs were no threat."

[ImSoNotTelling]

I bet that all of the people on here saying how great this is would have a different reaction if their OH went out and purchased whatever they were frightened of and installed it in the house.

I suppose it takes all sorts though. If my DC was terrified of the dark I wouldn't buy blackout curtains and ensure her room was as dark as possible every night, but obviously there are different approaches to dealing with the fears of others as this thread has demonstrated.