...or is it DP? Is this worth splitting up over?

[miserablemoralvacuum]

DP has just threatened to leave "because I have done nothing to fix my relationship with my family and i'm dragging him down into my own vortex of misery".

I've posted numerous times on here about my annoying parents and sister, who are daft nutjobs who regularly make me miserable by being nasty. My mother said before christmas that she hopes my son hates me.

Another nasty phonecall today. My mother went on at me yet again about her objection to me sending out christmas cards to relatives - saying that I'm an embarrassment, the relatives don't want all my boring news, she will have to find out what i've been up to from the relatives because I never tell HER anything, she doesn't see why I have to "split up the family" by sending cards when my sister is perfectly happy to be included on the family card, etc etc. (my sister is 3 years older than I am, has a 10 year old child and a husband - they all get signed for by my mother on christmas cards, just like they get houses bought for them, cars bought for them, shopping done for them...). And there were nasty jabs about other things too.

As usual DH and I ended up in a post-match analysis. I hate these because he always tells me I've got to fix the relationship with my family. His family is totally reasonable. He just doesn't get why this is so broken and why it is unfixable. He does honestly try to be helpful. His mum is a psychologist so he does his best to apply the right techniques. But my family are mad. The techniques don't work. I have been depressed for years and am just spiralling further and further down.

He says I am just letting my family be unreasonable, encouraging them, then whinging to him. and that it's dragging him down and he is beginning ot think he'd be better off without the whole thing.

Basically if i tell my parents they are behaving unacceptably either (1) they say I can't take a joke and they weren't being serious and i should lighten up and learn some social skills, or (2) they go off on one at me for telling them how to behave and how i have no idea and I'm an embarrassment and the world doesn't revolve around me etc etc. Then they change the subject and start tearing strips off me for something else.

One of my mother's favourite topics though is undermining DP, cutting across me when I talk about DP to ask about other men i know (work colleagues fgs!) as if they are my boyfriends; and telling relatives "oh there's noone special, she has lots of friends" when they ask after me and my family - for GOD"S SAKE WOMAN I LIVE WITH MY HUSBAND AND WE HAVE A 5 YEAR OLD SON TOGETHER. DP IS NOT SOME CASUAL BOYFRIEND. She even did it at a party at DP's parents' place - told a friend of his parents that her daughter "didn't have anyone special". No wonder the friend looked bemused and got away as fast as possible.

Wiht my mother doing that kind of thing, well no wonder DP feels undermined and dragged down. I can see that he feels my family are a bunch of nutjobs and that i'm just being weak and letting them keep dragging everything through the mud.

I have tried counsellors, I have tried antidepressants, I have tried CBT (but the woman was an idiot so it wasn't any help at all). DP's mother is trying to not interfere but is essentially providing a personalised Relate service. Psychology techniques are getting us bloody nowhere.

ARRRGGGH. and now he wants to leave.

So if your dp/h is considering cutting you all (you and your family) out of his life, why is it not OK for you to cut them (your family) out of your life? Inconsistent, double standards?

Your DH says "well that won't solve anything will it. You'll just beat yourself up and sanctify them because you were too selfish to be the bigger person and because you feel guilty you weren't around to help them in their old age. Neither you nor they will learn a thing if you cut them off, you will all just be more miserable and self-righteous."

Your DH is WRONG.

If you cut your family off AND find the right counsellor to help you, you won't beat yourself up any more. Ask you DH or his mum to help you find someone professional who can help you. It's horrible for you that your CBT therapist was no good, but there are good counsellors/therapists out there, and you really do sound as though you need some support.

Work on the relationship with your DH, maintain a good relationship with his mum (who sounds nice, although I've only read page 1 so far!!) and get a good counsellor.

I'm really sorry you're in this position. I really feel for you and your DH. But don't split up over it. Make 2010 the year in which you start to sort this out - it will be worth it in the end.
I'm sure the MIND website has a link to lists of psychologists and counsellors, but it does sound as though MIL could help you there.

What is it that your DP thinks you could/should do to improve things?

Are you married? If you are he's your husband, if you aren't he's your partner. It sounds as though from your post you aren't.
If you have a child by him and your parents would take him more seriously then why aren't you married?
Marriage gives alot more legal protection if one of you dies.
I think cutting people off, or the less melodramatic route of just limiting contact does solve things with destructive relationships.
Agree you need to decide for yourself what to do and not be persuaded to do stuff by partner or parents.
If you stay in regular contact with your parents though quit moaning and accept you have chosen this route.

OK, I've read the whole thread now.

I agree with those who are saying that you are putting your parents' feelings before your husband's by referring to him as your parnter, not as your husband. If my husband referred to me as his partner in order to placate his parents I would be livid.

I am acutally in a similar position to your DH, so I wonder if what I am about to say might help you ...

My DH's family are nowhere near as toxic as yours sound, but they can still be pretty awful and I have now spent 12 years listening to DH going on about the same old problems and issues, yet not doing anything about it. He has had counselling but his heart has never truly been in it - basically, a psychotherapist suggested that he should minimise contact with his family or even cut them out altogether, but DH cannot / does not want to do this as he still clings on to the hope that his family will change. He has an idealised picture of family life that has never actually been the reality in his case, but he still refuses to accept this.

His family won't change.

I am so utterly sick and tired of listening to the same old problems being re-hashed and over-analysed, and of DH refusing to change the way he reacts to his family, which of course is the only thing in this whole sorry mess that actually can be changed. It is heartbreaking for him, has caused him to be profoundly depressed, but his utter refusal to make any changes to the relationship (and his consequent moaning, sadness and depression for 12 years) have left me completely drained. I love him with all my heart but oh my gosh, it is SO hard to put up with the same self-indulgent whinging, day in, day out.

So I have some sympathy with your DH! (I'm not saying that you are doing what my DH does, but I'm guessing it might come across in a similar way).

As I said before, I am sorry that you are in such an awful situation; it must be horrible for you. You need professional help to enable you to understand what you can realistically expect from your family, how to manage your reactions to this, and how to put youself and your husband and child(ren) first. And how to deal with not seeing your parents etc, if that is what is ultimately best for you and your DH.

I know this is hard, but you do need to sort it out. Post again if you need to hear more about my DH's situation or if you need some help finding counsellors etc. I agree that MIL should not counsel you, but she might know someone good who could help - alternatively it might be a good idea to find someone who doesn't know her. Good luck.

2rebecca (and others who asked about the DP/DH thing): we are married. 6 years ago, in a registry office, didn't invite our parents since his were busy and mine didn't approve. My mother has continued as though we are not married.

I refer to him as my husband in real life. But he's DP on here, because in my head, the "husband" epithet really grates. It feels like it's buying into my bloody mother's non-acceptance of relationships that don't involve marriage.

i wouldn't have got married, but he asked me, and I said yes, because it was clear it mattered to him and we were (are, i hope) equal in our committment to each other. He knows I'm not a marriage sort of person, we've discussed it on occasion, but he would've felt incomplete without it, and I don't particularly mind it.

Hope that helps?

If you are married then he's your husband. End of discussion.
We got married in a registry office. If like us you are atheists then it can be a more "real" ceremony than vowing to a god you don't believe in to stay with someone until death when you know that if he starts being abusive or a total plonker you are out of there.
Civil vows and making your own vows are much more sensible.

MummyDragon - it's the other way round. In my head I refer to him as partner because I like the term better. Not in real life.

i like it better because I have unambiguously happy and positive feelings about our partnership but after a lifetime of listening to my parents belittle adults who aren't married, am silently dubious about my own suitability for the great institution nof marriage.

So he's not livid about that.

and I stand up for him every single time my mother does her stupid thing of trying to pretend he doesn't exist.

Also to those who have said I have too much contact and that I moan too much - i'm moaning on nhere to try to sort my head out. I contact my parents once a week at most (frequently less often), and the only time we discuss my parents is after those phonecalls, which DP hears because they happen on skype without a headset (ie speakerphone effect).

How is it possible that you are prepared to split up with your husband who does not hurt you, degrade you or "tear strips off you"? But, you're prepared to give your family chance after chance after chance... how many decades of your life have they already taken from you?

My parents are toxic too and there's not a single day on this planet where I'd choose them over my partner whom I love and who never, ever, ever makes me feel bad. It's a no-brainer really.

I have a great relationship with my parents but I don't speak to them once a week. Why do you need to contact them that often?

Do you get anything positive from these phonecalls? I'd just stop calling, only contact them when absolutely necessary. Focus on your family.

2rebecca: we might have to agree to differ onn that one. Only because i'm too much of a wuss to take your uncompromising approach and too foggy-headed to sort out in my own mind why I don't mind too much about being married but still secretly hate the idea.

MummyDragon: thanks for your perspective. I hope we discuss it less than you two do, but it certainly would come across as repetitive and boring and frustrating to my DP.

His mother isn't acting for us professionally - she counsels him like a good mum would, and sometimes (every few years) talks to me about things. She is firmly of the opinion my mother is nuts, and that both my parents are ill equipped to deal with life in almost every way, despite being university academics with PhDs and DScs and FRSs and so on. Education doesn't stop you being monumentally silly and annoying, it just sometimes stops others from finding you out as quickly.

What I need to do is change my expectations of my family. Downgrade, disengage ,and find a line between just not reacting at all, and defending my DH (and DS on the rare occasions they notice him and criticise him).

skihorse... I'm not prepared to split up with him. He said this afternoon that he felt he might be better off without me, implying that he was thinking of leaving.

I feel like a twunt that i have let it get this far. i have been through periods where I've not discussed my parents/ sister, tried to just be the bigger person and more serene. But when the depression comes all those good resolutions and plans go out the window. Usually beacuse I am in tears by the time I politely end the phonecall with my parents, and because DP comes and talks to me.

He's a star and now I feel like a real twit. Must DO STUFF to fix this, dammit.

What do you get out of the relationship with your parents though? They make you miserable, criticise your DH and DS - is there any reason at all to continue this?

I like some parts of my Dad. He is in the same field as me, so a lot of colleagues kind of know us as a pair. When he's with them, he is ok. Since he retired though I think he may be in the very early stages of alzheimers, as well as being quite a weak personality - he has gone from being the quiet enabler of my mother's vituperative nastiness, to taking an active role and saying discretely that he agrees with her about some things.

He would not contact me if I cut them off. After the argument before Christmes where my mother said she hoped my son hated me, in a christmas card, I rang up to say "look you're really not behaving acceptably" and it was my dad who got angry. And neither they nor my sister contacted me for Christmas - my parents put the phone down on me. My sister had been to my house for lunch the weekend before so "had already wished me a happy christmas" apparently - which is what I heard today when I rang my parents to wish them a happy new year.

(sorry i meant overtly rather than discretely... ie not remotely discreetly, not in a mild continuous way, as he might've done in the past)

My mother was very unaccepting of my boyfriend (now my husband) when we first started living together - I was at university and she managed to avoid mentioning him at all in all our conversations for a year or so. When I told her that we were going to get married (four years later, so it really can't have been a surprise) she said "oh dear". I made the mistake of telling him, as you do, and it really really didn't help their relationship. Now ten years later they still don't get on terribly well, but it has improved. My relationship with her is more complicated (not toxic but can be very difficult), but it does help that I have three siblings who all have similar issues, and that when dh and I had some very tricky ties I had some really helpful counseling to help me just put the relationship and it's baggage in context and on one side (for most of the time).

I think in the short term you should consider why are you talking to your mum so often? Once a week or so is really very frequent (my dh speaks to his family maybe twice a year but doesn't consider that he has cut them off and I think that is also fairly normal). Also why are you using a speakerphone? I use Skype every now and then and find it very stressful - it doesn't feel like a normal conversation to me at all. Plus if your mum and partner don't get on then why are you inflicting the conversation on him? Is this a bit of a defense perhaps?

Could you start by only speaking to your mum monthly, and doing it in private? Perhaps timing it so that there is something scheduled for afterward that will take your mind off the conversation (a good TV program, going out for a walk on your own?). Plus really make it short, a keeping in contact and no more call, so having a deadline (real or pretend) so that you can only speak for five minutes.

It is your mums choice to be horrible. In time she may reconcile to you having a separate life, but that's her path to follow, not yours. Stop feeling responsible for her emotions and stop using her values as a yardstick for your life.

God, stop calling them!

My DP doesn't get on brilliantly with his parents - no particular issues, they just wind him up a bit - and he speaks to them every few months, the odd email, sees them at most once a year. This is fine for maintaining a relationship, but not so often that they impact on his life.

well in fairness dont involve dh in your family detritus and all that she said/i said is so toxic.so do try obsess and share less.i imagine that coming from a functional family hearing all the argy bargy is wearing

BUT you have to decide how to proceed he cant blithely say fix it.isnt so easy

compartmentalise your life dont let toxic family impinge upon you and dh

Oh that last post sounds really painful. Poor you. Really I think if they are behaving like that I'd aim not to talk to them at all. You can keep in contact through your sister if you need to, and if you feel bad through the occasional letter maybe? I think that you would have to be incredibly strong to be serene in the face of that sort of behaviour.

For what reasons do you keep contacting your parents?

I wouldn't cut her out completely ATM. I would create a good distance from her until you feel strong enough to deal with her.

When you are feeling strong mentally then tell her exactly how you feel and have in mind the acceptable response you want. If she doesn't come back to you with the response you want then it is time to cut her out.

I agree with the person who said that your DH and child are your first priority. Focus on your relationship with him.

my family is the sort who live in each other's pockets. I and my parents saw our grandmothers every day when i was growing up. My sister sees our parents every day, and her parents in law nearly every day.

So i am considered a VERY standoffish and rude and nasty ungrateful selfish child for only phoning once a week - by the entire extended family.

i love the idea of only being in contact a few times a year!!!!!

why don't you contact only a few times a year then? You are a grown up, you are in charge of you...aren't you?

oh and I didn't answer your OP - no this is certainly not worth splitting over, of course it's not - you need to prioritise your own child's secure upbringing over your desire/need to please your toxic parents....

Sorry not read every post, but OP can I just ask why you still have these fucked up people in your life?

I think you need to tell your DH that not all families are the Waltons and then cut yours out of your life.

Your mother clearly has mental health issues, in your shoes I would get as far away as fast as I could.
Shut them off, tell people they are dead what ever you need to do, but for pitys sake get away from them, if not for you for your childs sake