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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be called racist

159 replies

UpsyOne · 26/12/2009 20:52

in a nutshell

I am white with white children, friend of several years is black with black children.

I was looking after friends DS who is under 5 at her house. Her elderly mother lives with her as she is poorly and not well enough to look after children - she was there with me.

Her DS was attention seeking in a cute way, kept pretending to fall over and bump his head to get me to fuss him. When he did it I would call him a little monkey, make monkey noises and encourage him to make monkey noises back to me.

In hindsight I do realise that racists will call black people monkeys as an insult.

But I believe in evolution and therefore believe that we all descend from monkeys. Not only that, I do the whole "you little monkey" thing with my own children.

My friend has been really off with me since as I apparently upset her mum (wasnt aware of it at the time) and her mum actually called me a racist!!

Am I being unreasonable to think the whole thing is just ridiculous or was I somehow out of order?

OP posts:
confuddledDOTcom · 27/12/2009 23:17

OK, I missed a bit

confuddledDOTcom · 27/12/2009 23:22

It does seem though that the original plans for Winterville were toned down a bit though.

I'm NAK and struggling with the laptop, sorry for spam posting lol

BetsyBoop · 28/12/2009 00:04

a friend's DS was taught to sing "baa baa red sheep" at nursery, much to his Chelsea-supporting father's disgust

ImSoNotTelling · 28/12/2009 09:34

dimmo alert

I never understood why baa baa black sheep could be construed as racist anyway, as in the song everyone is keen to get some of the wool ie it is sought after. Where is the negative connotation?

BetsyBoop · 28/12/2009 09:44

It's not racist in origin I don't think, if memory serves me right it's origin is from the wool tax in the middle ages

I think it was just a bit of PC-madness, in the same way that some people now say "chalk board" instead of "black board" (but how many people say "dry-wipe marker board" instead of white board? )

UndomesticHousewife · 28/12/2009 09:47

I call my dc's cheeky monkey's, but they are not black, I don't know if I would call them that if they were black.
My sister is married to a man who is half black and I don't think I would use the term in front of him.

Tbh I think it could have been the monkey noises her mum was offended at, at the same time as the monkey term.
I suppose if someone told me that someone else had said this to their black child I would be horrified.

But, on the other hand, you weren't being racist so didn't enter your head not to do it.
Speak to your friend tell her how much you love her and her children and apologise to her mum for offending her.

tinalane · 28/12/2009 09:57

UpsyOne, YANBU you aren't racist.

I think people are a little sensitive at the moment. Perhaps the grandmother has had monkey noises made at her by a racist in the past?

I'm the opposite of racist as anyone who wants to talk politics with me will find.

I hope you have made up with them, why not share a meal or something?

MaggieMnaSneachta · 28/12/2009 11:43

that is an urban myth about the ba ba black sheep. i heard people in ireland saying "oh in england now you have to say 'ba ba purple sheep' and they all believed that! I said, that is such a load of immense bollix, i lived there for years and never heard that once!!!

urban myths though, why let boring truth get in the way of a potentially interesting story.

edam · 28/12/2009 12:13

aw, upsy, glad it has been resolved but feel very sad for your friend's poor mother being ill and vulnerable.

As for bacon/jewish thing, in my first job my boss used to send me out to fetch him bacon sarnies. Once he went out to do this himself (felt like stretching his legs) and I answered the phone to his Mum. Because it was his Mum, not a client, I explained he'd gone out to get a bacon sarnie. Oops. Apparently he got into Big Trouble because he was Jewish. I hadn't realised...

I never do know whether someone is Jewish unless they tell me. Think it's a generational thing as older people do have some kind of antennae - remember my parents scoffing at The Sound of Music because one of the kids was clearly Jewish which was obvious to them but mysterious to me.

Recently discovered an eminent professor I know is actually Jewish - I had no idea but we had a fascinating discussion because it turned out he had thought every member of his parents' families bar them died in the concentration camps, only has just been contacted by a distant cousin who lives in Hungary and is very excited about meeting him.

Fortunately being vegetarian the chances of me getting into trouble by offering a Jewish kid pork are fairly limited.

AKMD · 28/12/2009 13:41

MillyR, I still think it is extremely odd and OTT but there we go.

For the record, I grew up in southwest London and was the only white girl in my class, one of maybe 10 white children in a school of 500 pupils. Until my family moved out of London (when I was 10), I had no idea that such a thing as racism even existed: I had friends from all sorts of religions, lived next to a Mosque, ate all the time at the Gurdwara, was invited with my family to parties for many different religious celebrations and was incredibly envious of my asian friends' saris and shalwar kameez. At my new school, it was incredibly difficult for me to adjust as I was suddenly introduced to a concept of race, and religion actually being a dividing issue rather than an excuse for more parties and yummy food! From my own experience, I can say that it is absolutely possible for someone to grow up with no awareness that having a different skin colour to other people means anything more than having different colour eyes or hair does, and I am really proud of my parents for not introducing me to an awareness of race for as long as it was possible to do so.

BetsyBoop · 28/12/2009 15:17

The "baa baa red sheep" is a true story from a couple of months ago, definitely not a myth, urban or otherwise.

Friend's DS started singing it one day when DD was round to play. I just looked at my friend with a "what's all that about then?" look on my face. She explained later that he'd been taught it at nursery, apparently they repeat numerous times with different colour sheep, but the first verse is "baa baa red sheep" which is all he usually sings.

Now hopefully this is just another way of teaching small children names of colours, rather than a bit of PC-madness on the nursery's part, I don't know (DD does not go to same nursery)

madamearcati · 28/12/2009 17:12

That Betsy is offensive to Native Americans

BetsyBoop · 28/12/2009 17:43

can't be too careful can you...

nooka · 28/12/2009 21:44

Baa baa black sheep isn't offensive to anyone - there are no negative overtones as to the colour of the sheep. I've always understood that to be a total urban myth.

Stephief · 28/12/2009 21:52

I call my kids little monkey all the time, and the yonugest (18 months) loves making monkey noises.

Its sad that it has been used as a racist slur, but you didnt mean it that way at all, it is a common nickname for little ones, so not your fault!

People will get offended at nearly everything these days.

HappyNewYearFromKimi · 28/12/2009 21:56

Your friends mother is an idiot

MillyR · 28/12/2009 23:13

AKMD, your post seems contradictory - you are saying that it is possible for people to grow up thinking that skin colour means nothing more than hair colour or eye colour, but at the same time you are saying that by going to school as a white child with people from different ethnicities you were introduced to different food, festivals and clothing.

I can only presume from your post that you did as a child associate different ethnic groups with these different ways of living, so skin colour then did mean more to you than eye colour, as you say you associated 'asian' people with these festivals and so on.

Unless I am completely misunderstanding and you are saying that as a child you defined someone as being 'asian' due to their clothing and did not realise that 'asian' people (SW Asian? Sorry, not sure what group you are referring to) usually have similar skin tones to each other but not to you.

It seems straightforward to me. Unless a person is a character in a dystopian novel or they work for an electricity supplier call centre, then they tend to treat each person as an individual because it is good manners to do so, as far as possible.

There are many things that define each of us as an individual - I own dogs and don't like getting up early in the morning. But part of the individuality of each person is their ethnicity, religion, cultural heritage, nationality, sexuality, gender and so on. These elements of people's individuality are important to them and should not be ignored.

What does it even mean when someone says they treat everybody the same? The same as what exactly? Usually it means that someone is going to treat someone as being exactly the same as themselves and the people they know very well. That's just lazy, smallminded and bound to end up causing offence at some point.

If we want to live in a tolerant society then we make an effort to show an interest in other people, because it makes them feel as they are valued, and it increases the knowledge and experiences of the person showing an interest, as you found out yourself through your enjoyable childhood experiences.

All of this concern over tiptoeing around, being frightened of saying the wrong thing, worrying about stereotyping people, of having not enough knowledge, of worrying that people from ethnic minorities are over-sensitive, or that the PC brigade are going to get you (as others have said on this thread) is utter nonsense. Being able to bond over what we have in common and learn from things about each other that are different are basic skills for forming friendships and working relationships; you don't have to stereotype or make presumptions about anybody in order to appreciate differences between people. There is no more reason for people to feel they are tiptoeing around someone who celebrates an Iranian festival than there is to tiptoe around me for owning dogs.

BetsyBoop · 29/12/2009 14:18

MillyR - if they teach what you said in your last post on diversity/requal ops courses then I don't have an issue, but it isn't what came across from your points 1 & 2 earlier.

I was one (not the only one I don't think) who said I treat everyone the same. By that I mean I don't register a different skin tone any more than I would register a different hair colour when I meet someone. I don't ask someone with a different (or the same for that matter) skin tone what their religion/ethnic background is because it's rude to ask personal questions of someone you don't know very well, and I certainly don't assume I can tell from the way they look/dress.

I treat everyone the same way; as an individual; with different interests, religion (or none), background, etc. It certainly doesn't mean I treat them the same way as "me" as I've still yet to meet anyone like "me"

I don't tiptoe round either, I hope I have a reasonable enough awareness to not put my foot in my mouth everywhere I go and if I accidentally cause offence/upset through lack of knowledge then of course I apologise and learn from it (and am suitably mortified, but that's just me )

To me that's just about your parents bringing you up to be a decent human being and in an ideal world you shouldn't need training courses on that.

I can see it's a different issue for schools etc as they are acting in loco parentis.

I also keep thinking about the now infamous peppa pig incident and it was handled badly IMO. The father of the birthday girl saw it as she unwrapped it and thrust it back at the giver saying {something along the lines of} "we don't allow peppa pig or any other pig toys in this house". Apparently both girls ended up crying. If my DD had been bought an unsuitable present I like to hope I'd have said "thank you" and then quietly removed it later, perhaps think about explaining to girl's mother at a later date why you didn't think it was appropriate.

confuddledDOTcom · 29/12/2009 16:36

MaggieMnaSneachta you mean I didn't hear my neice singing "pink sheep"? My brother didn't ask the school why? My brother wasn't told it's because they're not allowed to sing black sheep?

Maybe I dreamed that bit or my brother is an urban legend?

stickylittlefingers · 29/12/2009 16:53

My brother is an urban legend!

Given what a terrible time we gave certain groups of people over the years, I think it behoves us to do a bit of tiptoeing, and apologising if we cause offence, however innocently.

Maggie - great name! It's not often one can build a Mna Sneachta in Ireland...

confuddledDOTcom · 29/12/2009 17:08

I like the line from Kingdom of Heaven, I can't remember the exact wording but about how they were fighting about an offence that none of them made or took. I didn't give any group a terrible time over the years, I'm not going to appologise for my country's history.

louii · 29/12/2009 17:20

Why is doing Jazz hands offensive????

brettgirl2 · 29/12/2009 18:20

YANBU and she is being ridiculous.

However, if it was me I would apologise and not do it again.

I call my dd a monkey all the time - she even looked like one when she was born

TAFKAtheUrbanDryad · 29/12/2009 18:46

I sing Baa Baa Pink Sheep and Baa Baa Black Sheep to my dc - what does that make me?!

purpleduckUnderTheMistletoe · 29/12/2009 18:49

I thought the black/pink sheep thing had come and gone...I read something the other day about that....