to be called racist

[UpsyOne]

in a nutshell

I am white with white children, friend of several years is black with black children.

I was looking after friends DS who is under 5 at her house. Her elderly mother lives with her as she is poorly and not well enough to look after children - she was there with me.

Her DS was attention seeking in a cute way, kept pretending to fall over and bump his head to get me to fuss him. When he did it I would call him a little monkey, make monkey noises and encourage him to make monkey noises back to me.

In hindsight I do realise that racists will call black people monkeys as an insult.

But I believe in evolution and therefore believe that we all descend from monkeys. Not only that, I do the whole "you little monkey" thing with my own children.

My friend has been really off with me since as I apparently upset her mum (wasnt aware of it at the time) and her mum actually called me a racist!!

Am I being unreasonable to think the whole thing is just ridiculous or was I somehow out of order?

MillyR - going back to a previous post you made, how is anyone supposed to know every single thing that has happened to any given ethnic minority group and act sensitively around them because of that? That sounds completely unreasonable and rather ridiculous IMO. Surely people finding out about these things is a lifelong process and to call someone racist because they didn't learn all of them before they turned 18 is a staggering statement.

I'm not entirely sure that this is relevant, but if anyone has seen We Were Soldiers (not recommended if you're squeamish BTW!), do you remember the scene where a lady at the soldiers' wives tea party is wondering why she has to go off base to wash coloured clothing? Because she was white and had never had the experience of not being allowed to do something based on her skin colour, it never occurred to her that 'No Coloureds' referred to coloured people. Some people just don't know these things. I didn't know that 'cheeky monkey' was a racist insult; I learned. Same as when Americans use the word 'Paki' in the UK - it is not a racist term in the USA, how are they supposed to know that it isn't acceptable here?

That's a special case MillyR because they are paid to check these things. It is not generally racist if you don't know someone is jewish. There is no general requirement to check which group/s people belong to and the idiosyncrasies of all those groups. It wouldn't be practical anyway.

A school is a very specific situation though.

If I was at work and said to a colleague "I'm going to the caff for a bacon sandwich would you like one" and I hadn't realised that they were Jewish, I can't see that would be racist under the law? Really?

AKMD, I tried to make clear in my original post that there is a difference between making a racist remark and being a racist. Everyone is at some point going to make remarks that cause offence to other people. It is unavoidable, but we can all do our best to learn about other cultures and try to avoid offence.

To refuse to learn about other people's cultures, and to refuse to apologise when we cause offence is the behaviour of a racist.

Trying your best and sometimes making a mistake that reinforces someone else's experience of racism is the behaviour of a non-racist person who has made a racist remark by mistake.

So OP has made a racist remark, but that does not make her a racist.

That is all really a moral argument; it is very different to the legal obligations that schools, for example, have.

BetsyBoop - you're being silly now

This isn't about an obscure cultural no-no, this is about a well-known racist taunt. I am genuinely quite surprised that some 18-plus, british people who have presumably picked up a paper/looked at a news website/watched the news on the telly on a reasonably regular basis were not aware that making monkey noises at a black person is a racist taunt. Even Sun readers must know this because of it's usage at football matches.

But that is beside the point.

The OP admitted that she realises in hindsight that it has racist connotations.

Now, I don't think she was being racist. That is both my personal and professional opinion as a former employment lawyer specialising in discrimination But I do think she was insensitive and thoughtless to use a well-known racist taunt in front of someone who presumably doesn't know the OP that well and who is from a older generation.

And finally, I think the OP is being insensitive by saying in her OP that she thinks it is all just ridiculous.

Onagar, the point I was making was about the general ignorance of these issues on MN, rather than the behaviour of the OP. A school is not that much of a specific issue because huge numbers of people who post on MN work in the public sector. There are loads of teachers, classroom assistants, midwives, doctors, nurses, social workers, jobcentre employees, tax office employees, police officers and so forth on MN.

All these people have to be abide by the law on equality and diversity have a duty to positively promote racial equality and equality for people with disabilities. That is not simply a negative duty to prevent discrimination, but a positive duty to promote equality.

So why are there constantly threads on MN where people seem so ignorant of this?

I know this is a bit of a thread hijack, and at some point when I have more time, I should start an AIBU about it rather than tag it on to the OP's issue.

MillyR - I'm afraid I disagree with some of your understanding of the law.

Thing is that I'm not sure I agree with some of this at all.

I like to think that I am familiar with the basics of the predominant cultures/religions in the UK - but even then I'm sure there's loads I don't know.

But in order to apply this knowledge one has to know the background/religion of the other person. If they don't offer this information (and let's face it most people don't go around saying "hello I'm Steve and I'm Jewish" or whatever means you would have to ask to find out. Clearly asking someone is not a terribly polite thing to do. The only alternative is to make assumptions. Which is also a terribly bad idea IMO, and potentially extremely racist.

I would argue that in situations other than specific ones, like schools, it is potentially racist to try and fulfil the obligation never to be inadvertantly racist in the first place.

ah that would explain it, I don't read the Sun & my brain engages in neutral-daydream-non-listening mode every time I hear the word "football"

DD, I am sure you know more about it than me, but I probably need to start a thread about it some other time, as the OP's situation is between friends and the legal context isn't really connected to her situation.

Betsy I must admit it wouldn't have occured to me either. Because I don't mix with people who make insults like that, and no interest in sport etc.

We do monkey with ooh aah noises and hand gestures with DD as well, if there is a monkey around. Same as sheep goes baa or mouse goes squeak or whatever.

I am grateful to this thread though as otherwise I might well have cocked up bigtime.

I didn't realise that it could be used as an insult, and obviously my friends with mixed race/ 'black' children don't see it as such either.(Sorry, I hate dividing people by skin colour, TBH it's not normally an issue for me). I myself have a DS who has indian heritage on his dad's side, Does it make me racist because I don't see how 'cheeky monkey/little monkey' could be offensive when used as a term of endearment??

Maybe if the OP had said "oh I only said F off home little monkey" then I could see it as insulting, but I assume it was said in a playful fashion, and therefore NOT meant in an offensive manner, more as a term of endearment, so HOW can anyone take offence to that??

Saying (or chanting) 'monkey' and making monkey noises most certainly is a well known racist taunt, at least in this country. Hopefully things have improved since DH used to play semi-professional football and have to face bananas being chucked at him when he went on to the pitch - because he was black.

The OP should have been more sensitive when speaking to the lady's grandchild. She should also be more open to the suggestion that her act was racist, although of course this does not mean that she is fundamentally racist.

OP are you coming back to this thread? I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on what's been said.

A nursery worker was taken to court over making monkey noises and monkey gestures at an 18 month old black child last year. She was charged with, and found guilty of, racially aggravated harrassment.

Besty and ImSo - it's not just in sport that the usage of monkey (note: NOT cheeky monkey) as a racist term gets widespread media coverage - it came up in the Obama campaign when Obama sacked one of his aides for using the term and monkey jaunts were made about Michelle Obama.

I'm sure it wasn't meant to be racist. But it's pretty clear why it might have been perceived to be. And not acknowledge that it might be insensitive behaviour in front of some people seems to me pig-headed and, well, at the very least extremely inconsiderate.

And what's with the evolution defence? Where does that come into it at all?!

ah neverending coverage of American presidential election is another one where my brain engages neutral, I was vaguely interested in the result, but not the months and months of coverage that proIceeded it (in fact I watch very little TV at all, catch news headlines on R4 & that's about it)

{BB wonders if she wanders round with her eyes & ears permanently shut?}

millyr was she doing it as a part of play with all the children, or as something as part of play with that child, or was she making the noises specifically at that child in a nasty way?

So if there's a nursery book being read out and there's a monkey which says ooh ooh ah ah, and it is read to a group of children some of whom are black, then that person will be had up for racially aggravated harrassment?

WTF was one of obama's aides doing using a term of racial abuse? That's bizarre.

Not recognising/accepting you have caused offence after the event & apologising is wrong IMO, but not the causing-it-without-realising-it-was-offensive bit.

I'm still thinking about what my friend said earlier about the Peppa Pig incident. One of DD's friends at nursery is Muslim, so of course I made sure that she had pork-free option food at DD's party (infact going as far as pointing out to dopey girl at soft play place that ham was in fact pork...) but I could have so easily have bought her something Peppa Pig related for her birthday (luckily not for a few months yet, so of course I won't now) and inadvertantly caused huge offence and would have been absolutely mortified to have done so...

So calling it ridiculous for example...

TSC, it is to do with black and white minstrel show, but it depends on the context. DD does it in a HSM way and I am not aware that anyone would take issue with it done in such a way.

Oh gawd peppa pig hadn't even thought of that...

DD likes monkeys and peppa pig. we're screwed aren't we.