To think my normally sane DH is in danger of looking like a racist prick?

[FlamingoCrimbo]

DH just forwarded me an email that has been forwarded to him and to other people at his work by one of his colleagues.

I'm hoping he's not forwarded it to anyone except me - it doesn't look like he has.

It's one of those ones called 'border law'. Just found a US version here - swap the US references to UK ones.

DH is just misguided, IMO, sending this on - he ought to know I'd find it offensive. But it's made me wonder if IABU to find it offensive and to think it's probably been written by someone in the US equivalent of the BNP or at least widely distributed by BNP supporters.

So - AIBU and, if IANBU, how would you tackle it with him? He's very lovely, kind, and, sometimes, misguided so I don't want to upset him. I had to stop myself replying with 'you know this email makes you look like a racist prick, don't you' but that's not really very nice, or helpful!

Is there something wrong with the original link. I clicked on it and it just takes me to a comparison between immigration policy and that of various other countries. It doesn't even mention race.

I could make a guess that the original writer disapproves of current immigration policy, but even if he does it's not racist to have an opinion on immigration.

BadgersPaw - possibly. But another view would say that once the standard of living we could offer immigrants fell below that of alternative countries they would go there instead. There would also be increased emigration. I would suggest that we would stabalise at a lower standard of living but without complete collapse, and that by then by definition there would be others better placed to help those still looking for help.

They have free market principles though.

I am not suggesting this as a serious policy position btw. I'm making the point that any restriction on immigration makes a moral judgement that some peoples lives have more 'worth' than others, based only on their place of birth. This is not (as far as I can tell) morally defensible in any ethical system that does not take national/racial/religous superiority as one of it's axioms. We should be honest with ourselves about this.

Ooojimaflip so once this country's economy has been destroyed people would all up sticks and repeat the process somewhere else?

So soon there would be no nation left to help anyone.

To do the most good we need to focus our efforts. Harsh but true. Utilitarianism is all well and good but in all honesty a grain of rice to everyone in the world is not as effective as sacks to those who are starving.

Yes America does have free market principles but even it knows that a completely unfettered free market will destroy itself and ruin the nation. Hence it has controls, checks and balances.

"I'm making the point that any restriction on immigration makes a moral judgement that some peoples lives have more 'worth' than others, based only on their place of birth."

No it doesn't, that's your belief.

I want to help others regardless of their place of birth.

I can only do that by making sure that I have something to offer them.

Trying to help everyone would lead to us helping no one.

So we have to be pragmatic and make some harsh decisions.

And that is when we begin to answer moral questions.

No, you cant TSC, you must leave, right now

"peacock - No I wouldn't. But I should. I walk past the homeless too. Just because everyone does it doesn't make it right."

It seems to me you and others are very generous with other people's money and space and less generous with your own. I wouldn't call that a high ground, even if it is dressed up as "policy".

How ridiculous to say: I know what's right, and you all have to do it, even if I'm incapable or don't want to, just because I think it's right.

"Take a different example - if your family could get a better standard of living by moving to another country, should you be prevented from doing so, as it would prevent someone from that country doing the job?"

Well it happens, one does have to prove there is a job that only you can do. Quite right too. It's my dh's situation in fact I'm not seeking a job in the country for this reason it would take a job from a local. And we have come as taxpayers, rent payers and health service payers. And quite right too.

Pexp;

"how can you be in government but not in power"

You know what I meant. I meant I don't want NG running the country but want the BNP to have MMP's (which they have) and MP's (hopefully will win Barking at next election).

These threads never really get anywhere do they, they just give people like you an opportunity to attack people like me. You're so busy trying to make me look like an idiot that you pretty much ignore brilliant posts by people like Theshriekingharpy, because you're not really interested in debate, you just want a fight.

It's all so ironic.

And peacocks is right, most of you talk out of your arse.

It is not racist to discuss immigration in a civilised way.

What starts to look a bit off is when you make up your own information, (as in the OP's link, onagar) or in saying that immigration 'costs this country millions'. The last figures I saw showed a small net financial benefit to the country. Oddly, this wasn't widely covered in the press...

So if someone could look that up on a reliable source, that'd be great.

TheShriekingHarpy With respect to your population figures, the UK's leading supermarkets say they are already feeding 70 million plus.

In this instance I'll believe those guys over the government who admit they've no idea.

You are a hypocrite Ooja and you fail to recognise the realities of the ties that bind.

People have priorities and loyalties. Their family. Their extended family. Their neighbourhood. Their school community. Their religious community. Their country within a country. Their nation. Their principles and their culture.

These are the realities and you too have these or some of these priorities. It doesn't mean people will refuse to extend a helping hand outside the priorities. Far from it, in the UK, far from it.

The assumption, however, that one should give up one's priorities on someone else's say so does abrade in every country and community.

Unless the debate accepts and processes this recognition then it is doomed.

Why do we always hear about 'open door' or 'uncapped' immigration? It's bloody hard to get into the UK (even to come as a tourist from some countries) and it gets harder every year. But this doesn't fit with the 'soft touch' Britain crap, so the BNP types choose to completely ignore it.

And harpy, since that was from your post, why don't you go ahead and link me to where the government goes "to great lengths to promote the benefits of immigration"? Because that would be electoral suicide. And I don't think they've ever done it. Feel free to prove me wrong.

skihorse, my local Sainsbury's probably thinks we've got seven people living in our house... and six of them like beer

Heathen This is true, one of my friends has fought being sent back to her original country due to one group not talking to another.

Immigration and illegal immigration ar two completely seperate issues. FWIW this friends pays more taxes than me, and yet is somehow less entitled to be here than me. Just because of our place of birth, though arguably she is contributing more to society than me. I think immigration can do a country good.

Also I don't believe illegal immigrants can claim benefits easily, not after the hoops I had to jump through to get them myself.

The government has tried to stress the benefits of immigration Heathen. Obviously there are benefits, but there are also disadvantages, and in ignoring these, you can see why people feel the emphasis is on the other side of the argument.

I don't know how hard it is to gain initial entry. But once in, as a tourist, a student, on a work placement, asylum seeker, it is easy to stay.

I don't live in the UK DP, I haven't for many years, and really know little about the figures or how the government works at a fundamental level.
I can debate about the morals all you like, but I don't think you're up to it.

There are no simple solutions, no easy answers, there needs to be reasoned debate and a proper exploration of the issues. But not BNP propaganda and lies. Where would you even start to set a fair system of immigration? Its not as simple as send all the foreigners home....

...but if you're overstaying illegally, you're not entitled to work legally (so no minimum wage and no health & safety protection)and not entitled to health care, to benefits etc etc. And if you're caught, you're out on your arse.

But you can work illegally without paying tax (ibid Baroness Scotland I believe?) you will get treatment at A and E, you will have maternity care..

peacocks One of the "myths" we're told is that immigration will pay for our pensions - perhaps the government need a lesson in big fucking Ponzi schemes!

I think you'd get emergency treatment on the grounds of human decency, but aren't hospitals starting to ask for proof of NHS entitlement before treating you now? I think there was a thread about it a while back.

Either way, the 'everyone knows' stuff thrown around in any immigration discussion is generally just wrong. Which is why the email in the OP is stupid. Because it's, er, wrong. And wrong in a way designed to make people more xenophobic. And a lot of them, frankly, don't need that help.

Right, I'm back...

...err, daftpunk, did I miss the bit where you answered my points from earlier?

Or was this it:

"And peacocks is right, most of you talk out of your arse"?

Pexp;

You just can't stop can you..

"I don't think you're up to it"

It's condescending idiots like you who send people straight to the BNP.

Err pot, this is kettle, did you know you're black?

Don't hand out the insults unless you can take them. And nobody sends you to the BNP, you got there all on your own self. Actually I've met BNP members who are more left wing than you.....