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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

OI! Homophobes! Over here!

682 replies

ooojimaflip · 10/12/2009 17:23

I'm genuinly interested in why you object to homosexuality, and everytime I ask on the other thread it gets lost in the general hubbub.

So - name change if you want, but please tell me what your objections are?

If it's because it's not natural or against biology, please expand your answer to include why you care about that.

Show your working for extra credit.

n.b. Don't bother if it's a religous justification, you'll need to find someone who believes in that kind of stuff to debate with as I'll just dismiss that out of hand. If you are a homopohbic religous person with a secular objection then please go ahead.

OP posts:
LeninGrotto · 10/12/2009 21:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheBolter · 10/12/2009 21:29

So, Melted, given that you understand that certain people naturally go for members of the same sex, what do you propose they do about it?

Live a life of sin or a life of suppressed denial?

Cos I know which life I'd go for

MeltedTreeChocolates · 10/12/2009 21:31

ItsIgg I would have to say that more believe that it would be sinful than wouldn't. Many more. As the Bible is so direct and blunt about it I would like to know how they came to that conclusion of it being ok.

My point was though, that Christians should not be judging and targeting gays. That is so wrong. That doesn't mean they should agree with it but we are all sinners. I sure know I am so I wont be judging gays for their choices.

ChickensHaveNoTinsel · 10/12/2009 21:33

I have a rampant lesbian chicken. She is constantly harassing the other girls, and trying to mate with them. She is also my top hen. As I don't have a cockerel, I believe that she is taking on that role to gain status in the flock.

This has nothing to do with this debate, I just thought it was interesting.

MeltedTreeChocolates · 10/12/2009 21:37

All i wanted to say was Christians should not be 'homophobic' but as usual I have to keep blabbering on.... MN will be the end of me

MeltedTreeChocolates · 10/12/2009 21:38

Ha look at that Chicken you are no longer 'chicken shave'

SerenityNowAKABleh · 10/12/2009 21:41

Okay, so if the primary function of sex is to pro-create, why do women have clitorises? They are the only organ in the human body that is purely there for pleasure, and for most women (I think it's around 70%), they can only achieve orgasm through clitoral stimulation, as opposed to penetration.

Muser · 10/12/2009 21:43

If sex between two men is unnatural, why does the prostate gland give pleasurable feelings when stimulated? Gay men don't have anal sex just for the pleasure on the guy doing the penetrating y'know.

lifeissweet · 10/12/2009 21:47

I have a Christian friend and I have given up debating this with him. His, rather obnoxiously patronising, take on Homosexuality is that gay people deserve our pity because they have chosen the wrong path and that most, if not all, of them are homosexual as a result of abuse in childhood. I have had enough of arguing about what a load of cobblers this is. Does anyone else hold this unfounded assumption?

sprouting · 10/12/2009 21:47

Melted, the way I have reached the conclusion of homosexuality being ok is that as a Christian, I ignore the 'rules' in Leviticus that forbid homosexuality amongst other things such as wearing 2 types of cloth, taking slaves etc. as I don't believe that that is part of a Christian faith, with it pre-dating Christ etc. I also believe that the bible is not literally a dictation by God and that it was writen by people whose daily experiences and knowledge was far removed from our own. wrt Pauls letters, I think of them as letters to specific people in specific circs. We have no evidence that Paul ever thought he was legislating for another time and place and what he wrote may have been appropriate for a fledgling church setting up in a port town full of rent boys but it doesn't necessairly mean that homosexual relationships between consenting adults are not appropriate today. Its just my opinion, many Christians would disagree I'm sure but I have only once heard a RL Christian say anything homophobic and I know loads through dcs Catholic school and my very well attended church.

Oblomov · 10/12/2009 21:48

so have you got a homophobe yet, thread ?

If not, I think I have one. My dh is one. Not stringent, as it were. but thinks its not right. like in conversations to me. mind you, there are extenuating circumstances. all the men round here don't like gays. there are reasons.

but I don't think his is ignorance. or that he is that way inclined himself.
I hate those assumptions. becasue they don't apply to dh. I just think he doesn't like it.

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas · 10/12/2009 21:48

You're right choc that it's a majority of christians who think it's wrong to have gay sex. But there's also a majority of christians who think women shouldn't be allowed to preach in church. No reason to be on the side of the majority! The bible is as direct about the rules concerning menstruation as it is on homosexuality. We seem to have conveniently forgotten those ones!
I am, of course, in complete approval of your main point that christians have no excuse for being homophobic!

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas · 10/12/2009 21:50

Ah, you said that so much better, sprouting.

LetThereBeRock · 10/12/2009 21:51

'all the men round here don't like gays. there are reasons.'

What reasons would those be?

Rindercella · 10/12/2009 21:54

By ChickensHaveNoTinsel Thu 10-Dec-09 21:33:39
I have a rampant lesbian chicken.

Just fan-bloody-tastic.

Oblomov · 10/12/2009 22:00

Rock, becasue they were involved in the gay community and the paedophilia of The Walton Hop, which is a few miles from us, where Jonathan King worked.
And for the record, men my husbands age met both gay and paedophiles. they know the difference between the two. but are uncomfortable with both.

Blu · 10/12/2009 22:00

It may very well be that pleasure in sex helps ensure procreation (LOL - look at the number of unplanned procreation that happens as a result of pleasure!), it may well be that animals do or not indulge in sexual behaviour with the same sex or solely for pleasure.

But what does any of it prove?

Our own human boundaries of what we can achive in support of nature, despite nature or against nature are so broad to have removed any link between 'natural' and 'right or wrong'.

Homosexuality just IS. There is growing resarch that it is innate, many many homosexual people will attest to having been aware of their sexuality a v early age. It just IS, it exists, and the only possible basis fo deciding whether something that exists is 'good ' or 'bad' is 'does it harm anyone?'.

No-one who doesn't want to take part has to. Gay relationships are as consensual as straight. No one is harmed, it does no damage to bystanders.

And for people who will tell their children not to persecute gay people even though you consider it wrong or sinful or unnatural - please, please as parents, think how devastating it would be to feel you are, to the core of your being, something that the person who you look to for unconditional love considers 'unnatural'.

I can tell you that many many young people who are alone and frightened on the streets of London have left home because they are afraid of coming out to their parents - parenst just like you, with your own justification - or have been thrown out bcause they are gay.

So, so sad. Is THAT really worth telling children that a loving relationship between two people following their innate inclination is not 'natural' or 'normal'?

Homophobia is so lacking in human empathy or compassion.

MeltedTreeChocolates · 10/12/2009 22:01

spouting I agree about Pauls letters etc and find the Bible fascinating because of things like that. I do not know if you are wrong or right. We all have to decide for ourselves at the end of the day.

Personally I see the OT as important in it's own right. As a background if that makes sense. I think many of the 'rules' are still as important and relevant nowadays as they always were. That one included.

Have no idea what Catholics think about the whole thing.

Menstruating Igg?? As in not having sex when AF is around? I haven't forgotten that one. As yet I have not looked into women preaching. (I am only young in my faith) I will decide how I feel about that after looking into and praying to be guided.

Blu · 10/12/2009 22:04

Oblomov - sorry, that makes no sense! By that reasoning, people who live near that nursery recently at the centre of paedophile activity would be uncomfortable with heterosxuality!

Rindercella · 10/12/2009 22:04

Oblomov, really? Men around Walton-on-Thames don't like gays because of the paedophilia at the Walton Hop? Really?

Sorry, I don't think I have ever heard such drivel (speaking as someone who grew up in that very area and used to frequent the Hop in my youth).

LetThereBeRock · 10/12/2009 22:08

So it is due to ignorance after all then Oblomov?

Oblomov · 10/12/2009 22:08

oh o.k. then, I can't speak for all. but it affected my dh and many of his friends.

MeltedTreeChocolates · 10/12/2009 22:09

"And for people who will tell their children not to persecute gay people even though you consider it wrong or sinful or unnatural - please, please as parents, think how devastating it would be to feel you are, to the core of your being, something that the person who you look to for unconditional love considers 'unnatural'."

I will not judge my child if he decideds he wants to be with a man, and he will be told this. That is kind of my point. My son will know how I feel about whole thing because I have no intention to lie about it but my son will know that judging gay people is wrong and unfair. Again I have not said it is 'unnatural'.

My son will chose his own path and I will always love him no matter what he does.

Oblomov · 10/12/2009 22:10

Rock, ignorance means lacks knowledge. so no, it is not ignorance in this case. could be many other things. but not ignorance.

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 10/12/2009 22:13

Melted
IIRC there is a load of gubbins about sacrificing pigeons or doves when you menstruate and being 'unclean'. I'm afraid I do laugh when Christians use those passages as justification for homophobia. I have done the most cursory reading around those verses and there is the most extraordinary amount of gubbins in there - which can be ignored, but the bit about men lying with other men? Oh no, that's gospel! Lol.