OI! Homophobes! Over here!

[ooojimaflip]

I'm genuinly interested in why you object to homosexuality, and everytime I ask on the other thread it gets lost in the general hubbub.

So - name change if you want, but please tell me what your objections are?

If it's because it's not natural or against biology, please expand your answer to include why you care about that.

Show your working for extra credit.

n.b. Don't bother if it's a religous justification, you'll need to find someone who believes in that kind of stuff to debate with as I'll just dismiss that out of hand. If you are a homopohbic religous person with a secular objection then please go ahead.

fucking hell....i knew there was a job out there for me ..

the new exhibit at London zoo...

i wonder how much i'll get paid...?

what are my rights..?

human mumsnetter raised by wolves... that's one for the trade unions...

OP, that is actually a very liberal attitude to take, because you are making the (IMO massive) assumption that people are inherently good and thus only homophobic because of a belief that can be changed if they knew more about it.

But people in our society are reasonably well educated, and people on MN have access to the internet and can look up their alleged facts about homosexuality and find that they are untrue.

I am not making the assumption that just because someone is homophobic they must also hold other prejudiced opinions. I don't really care about their other opinions - the homophobia on its own is repugnant enough.

People who are homophobic in our society do so out of hate. They are arguing for a reduction in the extent to which gay people are included in society and then have the audacity to make out they are the ones who are being discriminated against. It is irrational and absurd.

Agree smallwhitecat, the amount of personal abuse on this thread is shocking.

Calling someone moronic, ugly and saying she should be in a zoo for the views she holds? That's acceptable is it? No it's not, it's a personal attack and a pathetic and cheap shot.

But that's exactly the point isn't it SWC - nobody is slinging rocks at you. They are debating with you on an internet forum in a democratic country where you are allowed to express your views.

As opposed to the treatment of gay people, who are physically attacked in real life for being gay in this country, and in some countries are attacked by mobs and literally stoned to death.

What an utterly repulsive metaphor you have chosen to use.

Mob mentality? Or is it just that the majority of us have similar opinions and aren't afraid to say so? We aren't ganging up, we are all individuals, seperately putting forward views. To cry bully and mob is the last defence of those, thankfully in the minority, who know that their views are indefensible and instead attack those who show them up for the bigots they are.
Daft punk does it well "oh poor me, these nasty PC bullies are ganging up on me just because I'm a bnp voting gay basher! How dare they not let me rant without being challenged, I'm so put upon, us middle class racists are a marginalised group...."

Its pathetic. And liberal isn't an insult, no matter how you try to make it be.

I think smallwhitecat, that unfortunately with the two other threads, it's got people's backs up. Understandably this is an issue very close to some people's hearts, and there have been a lot of offensive things said by those who disapprove of homosexuality.

Although ignoring those things would make for a less aggressive thread, it's not that easy to step away when you are being told you are "unnatural" etc. Especially when (as I imagine is the case for most homosexuals) they've suffered abuse for their sexuality in the past.

I know I've been amazed by how calmly and rationally some of the comments have been dealt with, especially in the earlier threads. But I can definitely see why that patience has worn thin.

But that'snot everyone is it?

So it cannot be a mob, it's an average group of peoplewith a few peoplewith extreme views bunged if for measure

Which IME is pretty usual

I'm not in any mob,my views have remained unchanged despite having spent quite a lot of time in (religious) environments where I am in minority (often of 1).

Criticise how certain peopletreat you fine, but just going on about mob mentality is unfair on those whom you don't really mean.

MillyR - it's not so much that people assume Homophobes are racist, though some may think that, I've not seen it here, more that one Homophonbic opinion implies all others. So you end up accusing people of holding positions they don't espouse, which understandably gets their backs up. Peoples views tend to be more nuanced.

I don't assume that people are 'good', but I think that making people explain their opinions and examine them is more likely to result in them changing them than shouting them down. Or they might convince me - I don't think there should be any sacred cows.

I'd like to comment about the 'gay community' or sluttiness/seediness.

I have two male, gay friends. One is an utter tart, who will shag anyone willing, but a lovely, lovely friend and godfather to my dd1.

The other is devasted after his 10 yr long relationship broke down, (dd1 is also devasted about this, as the one who has moved out of the home, is the one who gave her sweets when she visited ).

I have two straight, male friends. One is a devout family man. Married to the first women he fell in love with and undoubtedly will be with her for all of enternity. The other is married to a woman he cheats on constantly.

The sluttiness happens in gay/straight/man/woman. As does anal sex. So I don't understand how this could be used to justify homophobia?

No no no no no.

Simply put;
Thoughts inside own head= nobodies business, be as anti anything you want. Think what you like.
Say it out loud (or type it on public forum)= you are giving forward your opinions, which others may comment on as vociferously as they wish.

Its not about any herd mentality, or the right thinking man. Its not about enjoying ganging up and saying how unreasonable someone else is. Its not even a simple difference of opinion.

When someone puts forward a view that you find repugnant, you must challenge it. Especially when they use that viewpoint to justify infringing on the rights of others. The original post wasn't just about whether people thought homosexuality was wrong, it was seeking to prevent a gay person from mentioning anyhting about themselves. it was about forcing people to hide, it was promoting discrimination and bigotry.

If you think that we should just sit back and say "thats your opinion and you are entitled to it" go right ahead. But some of us realise that opinions are powerful, that bigotry is toxic, and we have a moral responsibilty to drown out opinions we find poisonous in the extreme.

You all have a right to think what you like. You have the right to say what you like. And I have the right to shout louder and longer than you.

"The original post wasn't just about whether people thought homosexuality was wrong, it was seeking to prevent a gay person from mentioning anyhting about themselves. it was about forcing people to hide, it was promoting discrimination and bigotry."

where do you get that from this?

"I'm genuinly interested in why you object to homosexuality, and everytime I ask on the other thread it gets lost in the general hubbub.

So - name change if you want, but please tell me what your objections are?

If it's because it's not natural or against biology, please expand your answer to include why you care about that.
"

the question was why someone might object to homosexuality. says nothing about rights infringments or publicly announcing opinions. it was a request for people to explain their private views and the reasons for their homophobia.

you can shout as much as you like pooexplosions, but you're not going to change anyone's attitude with the offensive way you put your points across.

People are much more likely to dig their heels in and defend their opinions to the hilt when verbally abused for them.

"If challening opinions was what was actually happening, I'd be all for it."

It started like that. But was met by less than reasoned/unoffensive messages. That was when people started getting angry back.

To be fair a lot of people myself included started out genuinely wanting to hear a reasonable rational reason for these views just it never came plus it then turned seriously nasty and became a bit of a free for all

mayorquimby"The original post wasn't just about whether people thought homosexuality was wrong, it was seeking to prevent a gay person from mentioning anyhting about themselves. it was about forcing people to hide, it was promoting discrimination and bigotry."

the OP being either the one in education, or the thread about that one, this being a thread about a thread about a thread.

lemonmuffin I am exceedingly rude to one poster in particular, because they deserve it. I don't apologise for that, and they know exactly why I am very rude to them. I don#t believe I am offensive to anyone else.

smallwhitecat I never assumed you are anti-gay, you do seem to be against expressing an opinion that many others share simply because it is a popular one.
Why is it frightening to shout back at bigots? there are many opinions that are unpopular, but just a few that are actually sickening. Are all opinions equal? Are we to say to the BNP that their opinions are all perfectly fine? To those asserting that the homos will burn in hell...thats fine, your opinion is as valid as anyones?

Come on, have a bit of backbone, stand up for what you believe in. Argue vociferously. Whats the point otherwise? I'll debate rationally with those capable of it, and those who aren't, well thats when you have to shout over them.

Or just sit back and talk about "liberals" and herds while bigotry wins again.

pooexplosion - that's why I started the thread - to attempt to find out why people are Homophobic outside the context of what the consequences of Homophobic behaviour may be. Attempts to explore that in the original AIBU thread were being drowned out.

I don't think being rude to people helps. Despite my best efforts I get accused of extremism and rudeness on threads about religon - I don't mind that I don't think anyone has a right not to be offended. Deliberate personal rudeness howevere are either funny or counter productive.

Not allowing someone who you consider to be bigoted to speak is to behave in a bigotted fashion. If someone is not able or willing to justify their views, you are free to disregard them though.

Every organism has got one evolutionary goal and that is to procreate as well as possible.That is true whether it be a human , an octopus, a daffodill or a bacterium.Everything about an organism is evolved to further this end.
Homosexual sex does not aid procreation and so really cannot be described from an evolutionary POV as desirable.This is not homophobia , it is a FACT.Therefore teaching children that homosexuality id as normal and natural as hoterosexuality is
Homosexuality has to be regarded as either a 'defective' gene or caused by a life experience.This does not mean for a minute that homosexual people are not good , contributing members of society and homophobia is just plain wrong.

yummmyyummyyummmy - this is the argument from nature again. Can you explain why this makes any differnce to how people should behave?

Poo/smallwhite/noddy/mjorquimby - if nothing else we are disproving the existence of a liberal consensus.

yummyyummyyummy - i.e. I am a concious individual not a gene - why would I take an evolutionary POV?