OI! Homophobes! Over here!

[ooojimaflip]

I'm genuinly interested in why you object to homosexuality, and everytime I ask on the other thread it gets lost in the general hubbub.

So - name change if you want, but please tell me what your objections are?

If it's because it's not natural or against biology, please expand your answer to include why you care about that.

Show your working for extra credit.

n.b. Don't bother if it's a religous justification, you'll need to find someone who believes in that kind of stuff to debate with as I'll just dismiss that out of hand. If you are a homopohbic religous person with a secular objection then please go ahead.

Actually, this thread has been very interesting in parts. Oojimaflip's list of strands pointed out

But it's not interesting when people either shut down the debate, saying it's not valid at all because there's nothing to discuss because homosexuality is absolutely ok. Well, maybe it is, but what's the problem with discussing it? There's enough books out there on gender and sexuality studies.

It's also not interesting when you have two sides who aren't really willing to entertain debate - some of the most vocal 'homophobes' seem to have no actual philosophical arguments, just 'I don't like it and I'm entitled to my opinion.' On the other side, there seems to be a bit of a 'holding my popcorn and waiting for the entertainment' mob who are wanting to basically shout at the homophobes.

Perhaps it's the title of the thread.

Actually, I think there are some quite valid questions that haven't been answered. I still do feel that promiscuity is much higher in men than women and that there is a lot of risk-taking among one subset of homosexuals (otherwise Gaydar and all the cruising sites wouldn't exist) because the female element isn't tempering that. I am curious as to whether that promiscuity is problematic and why. (Genuinely, I'm wondering on my own feelings here. I feel people have a right to whatever sexual encounters they want, but I do feel uneasy with overt promiscuity and I'm wondering what I'm basing this on.)

I'm also interested in why butch lesbians mimic men (I've always wondered this! No judgement implied).

Thirdly, I think the equal rights question is valid. I came up against this on Arts Council forms which ask for sexual preference. I believe there is a certain amount of quota-filling that goes on here when assigning funding. ([http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/stage/theatre/article3663310.ece link here])

Now, I don't think I'm homophobic. I hope not! I have gay friends of both sexes, have taken my kids to Pride marches and actively support anti-Prop 8ers. I strongly believe that rights should be absolutely equal, whatever your sexual preference.

But I am interested in debate and think there ARE some interesting questions here. I just fear that any dissent from the 'nothing wrong with gays, they're exactly the same as us so there's nothing to discuss' stance gets written off as homophobia and is fair game for abuse. It's a bit like saying 'black people are just the same as white people so there's nothing to discuss' - well, they may have the same rights, but there are differences of heritage, culture and social issues, and I feel this is the same for homosexuality. Some of those issues may well lead to questions which I think are being raised here.

Acknowledging difference isn't the same as being scared of it or disparaging of it.

Sorry, link here:

yummyyummy

I attended a very interesting lecture on that once (parts of which were loosely absed on Selfish gene theory, other parts not)

The idea espoused was that in fact the goalof all individuals is not to reproduce, but ensure survival of the species.

In that ttheory, gay people ahd a defined role within the group as non breeders,having a provider / protective /brotherly riole that complemented the breeder mentality of the majority.

Now clearly we wlive in a very different world now and gay peoplecan make stunning parents, however this did provide a thought provoking evolutionary asnwer for the existence of gay people that was vastly contrary to the 'its not normal /against God / deviant' attitudes I was meeting elsewhere in my studies (in that year I combined psychology with RE)

It does make sense imo that in evolutionary terms we could have benefitted from people without direct parenting or breeding roles towork alongside the other functions.

OOjma you may be (debatably) disproving the existewnce of a liberal consensus here; there are certainly many libewral people who follow by way of thinking and share a consensus.

I really dislike it when posters use the few more fervent posters (even though I agree in this case with a great many of their views) to disparage or deny the existence of us quieter more thoughtful types.

I want special lesbian rights and I want them now.

That doesn't sound like a special lesbian one. That sounds a bit nasty. I only want the special ones.

I feel left out. I'm imagining that lesbians have these secret, amazing rights now. Do they get their own room, filled with chocolate and rose petals?

I want special lesbian rites as well. And I want them in one of Chicken's relaxation suites (altho she forgot the wine).

Virgin - if you unthinkingly follow a liberal consensus then you are NOT a liberal. So, ironically the liberal consensus is made up entirely of non-liberals.

I don't think the fact that lots of people starting from the same assumptions end up with the same conclusions is either surprising or a consensus of any sort.

The problem is when people are not prepared to listen to new evidence.

We're not sure Riven, but I suspect that chocolate is involved

I want special immigrant lesbian rights. They sound a bit fancy.

Carmensandiego
I do think that's interesting about the trends in sexual behaviour among different groups. There is a lesbian joke (I mean told by lesbians, I've heard it from more than one woman) 'what do lesbians take to a 2nd date? the cat, the furniture and the kitchen sink'. Not a very funny joke admittedly but playing on the trend to move very fast into cohabitation and commitment. Whereas some of the stories my gay male friends have told me have made my eyelids curl and my toes water. They also tend often to be non-monogamous. Women (straight or gay) simply don't do cottaging or saunas, and whilst there are certainly many women who enjoy exhibitionist sex it's done in a very different (planned and coupled up usually) way.

Also, men tend to be less faithful than women, in straight relationships. I don't think this tells us much really though except that men and women are socialised very differently when it comes to sexual behaviour.

Your qu about butch women looking like men - actually that's not generally the intention, or effect. Butch women are more like a gender of their own, as are very effeminate men. I hope that any lesbians reading will understand what I mean here, I'm not being offensive, just not explaining well. Ie being 'butch' is part of a woman's identity, she's not mimicking men, but being what she is, a butch woman, who is different to a straight woman, or a femme lesbian. If you see many butch women you will see that it's not just the clothes and short hair that resemble males, but their body shapes, jawlines etc are often very 'masculine'. I think this makes it absolutely bloody obvious that sexual orientation is innate, not learned, as it just seems obvious that some women have more testosterone than others. (This does not make them like men, but it makes them butch woman).

I personally believe that sexuality is a continuum. If we all just got off on penises in vaginas life would be very boring, people get off on oral, anal, spanking, dom, sub, voyeur, exhibitionist, toys, dress up, blah blah blah. I wouldn't fancy a purely 'natural' sex life, would anyone? I myself am straight. I have never had a sexual experience (a genuine one) with a woman. However I'm turned on by lesbian porn and have a crush on a woman I used to work with which, if I wasn't married, I would definitely take further. However I'm only ever attracted to lesbians, never straight women, and only more boyish women (slim, short hair, androgynous, not butch) which I think shows that my sexuality is mostly straight but not completely. I think most peoples' would be if they gave themselves half a chance

Riven - I think you'll find it's disabled lesbian single-mother immigrant muslim rights you are after. (Did I leave anyone out?)

Shit forgot race : - disabled lesbian single-mother immigrant black muslim rights. They must be the best.

Daftpunk claimed that if a lesbian got fired, she could claim it was because she was a lesbian, which DP couldn't do. What a fantastic right to have

Completely failing to see that what the lesbian would actually be doing would be invoking her protection from actual discrimination for any reason under equal opportunity legislation. Which is a right that, in fact, everybody has.

headdesk

I bet they even get wine in their relaxation suites To be fair, they would probably only need a largish cupboard rather than a suite.

I heard that if you were a lesbian and you got fired, you could get huge amounts of compensation if you went to a tribunal and did a special muff dance on the table. Perhaps dp meant that.

A muff dance, eh? How would one get their muff to dance, exactly?

Riven - damn your right.

It takes special lesbian training, Chicken.