To think that the welfare state is too generous if people in council flats have way more stuff than those on middle income can afford (no really lets have a discussion)

[splodge2001]

Maybe it's where I live (central london) maybe it's me (hmm, I don't think so) and It's definitely something that's been ruminating around my head for a while. An argument I've tried to unpick but I always come to the same conclusion.

I'm sure I'm going to be lynched but I'm keen to get other people's perspective on this....Here we go...

Where I live private housing is expensive and intermingled with social housing. It's hard to tell the difference between the social housing and the private dwellings. Certainly on the open market they fetch very similar prices. I'm feeling grumpy because we (DH and I) pay a lot of tax which goes to the people down the road in social housing, of course we should pay tax to support those on low earnings BUT, it does start to grate when though people in subsidised housing seem to have much bigger disposable incomes. eg. everyone I know who lives in the council flats near us can afford a car, we cannot. They can afford several holidays per year, we cannot

Isn't the welfare state just a bit too generous to enable those on low incomes to afford more than those on higher incomes? Surely the point of welfare isn't to subsidise cars or 42inch TVs.

I'm sure I'll be told to move out of London if I want more but this doesn't address the issue that I'm raising. Why should I subsidise people living in central london when I cant afford to live here myself.

Analogy moment....

I have 5k and would like to buy a car, instead I'm forced to give up my 5k to the government, who instead gives it to someone else so that they can buy a car. Boo hoo!!!

Go on let the stoning begin!!!!

it may be - but it's not part of the "benefits" of which people generally talk about. Social housing isn't (totally) dependant on having no work or an extremely low income.

Obviously these days because of a shortgage of social housing (as most of it was sold in right-to-buy) then it is usually those people that get it - because they have more "points" and are higher up the list.

No council housing is not a benefit. It is just annoying to you because you don't get it.

It annoys me that some people inherit hundreds of thousands of pounds, and that Peaches Geldof is famous, but I'm not petty enough to start a thread about it

What about people that smoke/drink/eat fine foods on OUR tax money?

• oh better go and hide those magners in the fridge as well

Would I sound like some old fogey right wing tory if I said I don't feel sorry for people in debt because they spent money they don't have on credit cards and catalogues?

I feel sorry for refugees from Rwanda who are living on next-to-nothing because they have fled a regime which murdered their family and left them with nothing.

Or the victim of domestic abuse who has fled a violent marriage with her children and is living on benefits because she doesn't have a job.

But people who live so obviously beyond their means? Feel sorry for? nope.

And do they really need fancy soap? More than a minimum amount of clothes? Disposable nappies? Tampons? Deodorant? Make up? Hot water more than twice a week?

And it is not YOUR tax money it is EVERYONES.

You should think yourself lucky you will be entitled to the same if you find yourself up shit creek

Should they be allowed radios if not tvs?

Who gets to decide?

Hullygully, do you mean like this?

Council housing is a form of benefit, people have made hundreds of thousands of pounds of it, it is a way to get something you couldn't otherwise afford, a public subsidy.

Times like this I really dislike Mumsnet

yes you would a little clara - as unfortuantely not everyone who takes out credit while on benefits does it willingly. Sometimes it's the only way they can see/know of to replace/get stuff they need.

Sometimes people had the money for spending on credit and catalogues and were doing fine - keeping it minimal, perhaps even paying off stuff before they got charged interest on it, and then lose their job/circumstances change drastically and they still have to pay the debts regardless.

(obviously those that do it because they can are an entirely different matter).

excuse me but my DC is at one of those schools.

Ok there is some confusion about what im asking 2 discuss. I'm probably sounding unclear as im basing my views on observation rather than quantifiable evidence. the truth is i dont know if it's benefits of council housing that is too generous. I just think that something is amiss.

i agree - i have an asset, but i'm questioning how that benefits me, we all have somewhere to live, its just that eventually its value will pass to my children

no im not a journo, too many spelling mishtakes!

Well would you rather be in their postion or your own?

I know where I'd rather be so I tend to mind my own business.

claraquack, I think that you don't understand that for somepeople they are never going to earn enough money to do anything more than just EXIST.

And living like that year after year with no treats or new things is depressing. When you then factor in the ease of obtaining credit/stuff for nothing I think it is very easy to see why people get into debt.

Agree Sherby.

But to add to what reality said, I have been majorly pissed off with my MIL who on a £40'000 local authority salary got a council flat that she 'lived' in then bought for a pittance whilst also owning three properties.

It's not really a 'these people' issue.

Some exploit the system, most don't.

i havent read all the comments but thought i would leap right in here feet first, lol.

I should say up front that i am not british. I am australian. I have however lived in Britian (London) for the last 10 years and it has always amazed me how many people are in subsidized housing.

In australia we also have government housing but there is a stigma attached to it. If you have to take government housing long term then it kind of labels you. Most people would avoid it like the plague unless they literally had no other option. It is seriously means tested as well. If you have any other source of income other than benefits then odds are you wont qualify.

Over here it has always suprised me how people are so happy to get a council house and actually expect the council to find them somewhere to live and generally speaking there is no stigma attached to it.

To me it seems that there is no motivation for people to look after themselves or better themselves. The state will take care of it all. It is a very alien way of living to me. My H and I have a theory that it has been encouraged by the government as a form of wage restraint. People living in subsidised housing a less likely to demand a living wage and the minimum wage in the UK is very low.

I honestly don't know if benefits are too generous. I do think that certain types of benefits are too readily handed out and people are not properly audited (disability/sickness benefit seems to be one but i recognize that laxity was politically motivated.) I dont like to hear of people claiming the dole for years on end. it does no one any favours least of all the recipient. I dont beleive that single parents should be able to claim benefits for looking after their children full time beyond about the age of 6. I also think that benefits should only be payable on the first child.

I think that the whole welfare state concept needs an overhaul and the public's attitude and expectations of it needs to be adjusted. With an aging population it is just not going to be possible to continue to fund the kind of nanny state that is presently in operation. People need to look out for themselves and only fall back on the state as the safety net it is meant to be rather than the lifestyle option is currently seen as in some quarters.

That is my two pennies worth anyway. Take it with a grain of salt if you will. and yes sometimes i do read the daily mail, but only for the entertainment section which can be better than perez hilton at times for salacious mind numbing gossip!

"but i'm questioning how that benefits me, "

oh believe me - having sat on both sides of the housing ladder - owning your own home benefits you in more ways than you can possibly imagine.

DMDMDMDM alert.

"I just think that something is amiss." THAT IS NOT A RATIONAL BASIS FOR A DISCUSSION.

Is another of those threads where all the 'spongers' have wide screen TV's and shiny new cars?

YABVU. And exagerating more than likely.

me too disenchanted I should really learn to hide these threads.

I am not comparing debt to refugees or domestic violence FFS!

Debt however does devastate lives in particular I'm thinking about the children of those who end up in serious debt.

"To me it seems that there is no motivation for people to look after themselves or better themselves. "

with regards to housing that's because private rentig isn't secure by any means, 6 months tenancy after that you could find yourself having to look for somewhere else to move to, often over priced, among the great landlords there are also an equal share of shit ones. And those that can't afford to buy are left with the insecurity of private rental of applying for social housing

Always beware people that say "I just think" (my mother does this). It means "The facts don't interest me in the slightest, I'm just going to trot out my tired old DM prejudices in an irritating bufton-tufton like manner."