To think that the welfare state is too generous if people in council flats have way more stuff than those on middle income can afford (no really lets have a discussion)

[splodge2001]

Maybe it's where I live (central london) maybe it's me (hmm, I don't think so) and It's definitely something that's been ruminating around my head for a while. An argument I've tried to unpick but I always come to the same conclusion.

I'm sure I'm going to be lynched but I'm keen to get other people's perspective on this....Here we go...

Where I live private housing is expensive and intermingled with social housing. It's hard to tell the difference between the social housing and the private dwellings. Certainly on the open market they fetch very similar prices. I'm feeling grumpy because we (DH and I) pay a lot of tax which goes to the people down the road in social housing, of course we should pay tax to support those on low earnings BUT, it does start to grate when though people in subsidised housing seem to have much bigger disposable incomes. eg. everyone I know who lives in the council flats near us can afford a car, we cannot. They can afford several holidays per year, we cannot

Isn't the welfare state just a bit too generous to enable those on low incomes to afford more than those on higher incomes? Surely the point of welfare isn't to subsidise cars or 42inch TVs.

I'm sure I'll be told to move out of London if I want more but this doesn't address the issue that I'm raising. Why should I subsidise people living in central london when I cant afford to live here myself.

Analogy moment....

I have 5k and would like to buy a car, instead I'm forced to give up my 5k to the government, who instead gives it to someone else so that they can buy a car. Boo hoo!!!

Go on let the stoning begin!!!!

Can i just say that for most firemen, the job of being a firefighter is rarely their only job and the shift pattern lends itseld nicely to them working on the side.
My friend was married to one and trust me his fireservice salary of £30k ooop north was their holiday fund, not the main income.

Nope Custardo, no ipod, mp3, reading... nothing.. just hours and hours of dark lonliness. I couldn't do it - I'd crack up! You do get 8 weeks a year holiday though!

Coralanne. Yes it is sad, but I admit in a way I feel the same. The worst schools in my area (Kent) are in areas where there is a high density of social housing. I live in social housing, even so, I'd pick the school for my daughter out of area if needs be.

Look Splodge I was a bit harsh with my posts last night, you are quite welcome to my 2 bedroom 12th floor council flat if you really want it, not the greatest area mind but we do have great views over the City and Canary Wharf, oh and you can have our car too if you'd like? Vauxhall Mireva ok for you?

No stones from me, you speak the truth

does she?

'V'

Mum's tenancy states only iif child to inherittennancy (only a child or spouse) hs been living there 10 years or more; IME that has only meant carers and adults with a level of SN actually get to do so. Which IMO is fair enough- most of the carers have given up their jobs to save the Government / country / taxpayers £££'s in fees (thousand upon thousand if over a decade)

There has to be a safeguard for these people.

All the houses here BTW have been transferred to HA stock, most if not all back home. Very few actual Council Houses these days I think.

Mum and Dad were given a house in the era of one for all; they could probably have bought (definitely ifMum hadn't had to leave wotrk to have children- she'd lost 5 babies, so bed rest for term). There was a brief gap I remmeber when it would have been possible,though they never learned to drive or went abroad until we grew up,theirmoneyt went on school trips for us etc- things that did make a difference becasue (albeit with me now being a carer) we all grew up and had devcent educations and careers- one Nurwery manager, one Vet Nurse and I was a Charity Manager. So momney invested wisely you could say, in terms of taxation. However, had they bought they'd now be back in council Accom as their pensions (note the plural- my aprents do nothing by halves) collpased (not in the big collapse, a small isolated case involving issues with American law and how pensions here can be treated as assets if the company is bought by an American company that later reputedly goes under to avoid mass lawsuits from H&S claims related to asbestos overseas).

(That's only my understanding of it though).

So they're on HB now, after a fulllifetime of working and paying in- Dad still works PT despite being past 65, and having a disability that he won't get help for (he has no feeling in a leg). mum hasn't worked for years but does have a clear case IMO of undiagnosed AS, and takes in some of her grandkids for free so my sisters can work (my BIL has a potentially fatal disorder so rarely gets to work although is employed).

So- can yu really say that my aprents, OP,don't deserve the holidays they do take annually? i think they do, they should ahve their own bungalow by now but for thge pension thing- why should they live a life of nothing becuase of some bad luck?

I think the recession has caused a lot of envy;peoplese how their own finances are challenged and see everyone else as getting away with it, that'ssad though. We lost quite a bit- well DH lost his job. But i don't begrudge others a bit of luck (and we'veturned outs bad luck into good by getting DH on a course he desperately wanted to attend but couldn't justify financially).

Peoples lives are being turned upside down and those on benefits in no way represents the workshy types people were conditioned to see 5 years ago when all was boom. Bt being there, or losing your house, or whatever does not mean you lose every asset you accumulated in that time. We forexample have twocars still; a luxury? Nope- Dh neds one for college (no train station or bus from here to there), my son is at a SNU 10 miles away so I need access to him if he gets sick, or the taxi doesn't turn up, or for school meetings. It'salso cheaper- as a large family the main car is expensive torun, its cheaper to run DH's smart car for eery journey possible and use the spacewagon only for trips of +2 people, than to run the wagon everywhere.

And finance....... many years ago in a city near here I accidentally (offered a job via a friend ) worked for a legit credit company that basically ran a rip off if legit finance system for non workers. People were being chraged interest of 500% APR onloans of under £500 (52% IIRC), not clased as usuary, and if you didnt pay he'dtell your neighbours,family etc and you would have so much shame. *Bloody disgusting IMO. He knew full wellmany of our clients were either not bright enough to understand, or would do anythinga s tey were desperate for basics.

It's hard when you'repoor, I know that. Doesn't change whether you are working poor or not. But there'snothing to be gained by envy oranger at others, and with the exception of disbaility etc usually a way to start changing things- even in a recession there are college courses etc (I know childcare is an issue though)

'But of course doh! Council house scum dont work do they? Silly ol me.

So where should all these ner do wells be shipped off to?

Where would they not impinge on decent people's lifestyles?

Home counties? - wouldnt they make the place look untidy and bung up the schools?
West Country? - there isnt anywhere to live for local scum now all the property has been bought up by 2nd homers and downsizers
Highlands of Scotland? - might interfer with the wildlife. They eat swans dont they?

Mumsnet is looking for a new campaign. Why dont we submit our ideas about where we wouldnt want to live and we can draw up a list of suitable areas.
'

Ship em all to Bridgwater thats what I say

Hors commute with traffic to workpretty much anywhere, views of the river mud and biiiig estates*.

*(should emphasise I lived there for 3 decadesp there so am being tongue in cheek)

An hours ciommute is normal, Dh did 1.45hours for a few yeras, that was ahrd but heck, its what you do isn't it?Mopst people don't live in London and have a fair journey for many things built into their day.

Haven't read all 70 odd pages of this thread, but from what I can see, on one hand I completely agree with Splodge in that yes, central London living is shockingly expensive. It does cost a fortune, you can't always buy a property that will comfortably accomodate a family, nor make repairs on the property you have. But that's central London for you - what do you expect???

I can see where you're coming from (slightly), but blaming it on council home tenants is hardly going to change YOUR situation is it?? Or endear you to many here on MN, when you begin such an inflammatory thread!
A tiny proportion of our taxes goes towards subsidising council properties.

I know you say 'why should I have to move out?' - but is the reality of living with broken furniture, not enough space, not enough money to pay for new school trousers for your DC really so preferable to moving somewhere you might have to commute from? What's so good about living central London if it makes your day to day living so utterly miserable?

The fact is, MOST people have to commute to work / not have enough space in their homes / have no money for repairs and the latest 'stuff' - regardless whether they are on benefits, in council property, privately renting, privately owning, etc. It's called life, making the best of what you have. Deal with it. Many people in life will have more than you. MANY more than that will have much LESS than you.

FWIW, I live central London too and own a property. It's a tiny one bed flat. DH and I would never be able to afford a decent 2 or 3 bedroom flat here or a house (houses rarely come on to the market, and if they do they are at least £1 - 3 million. The only 'cheap' house we have seen in our area is a 2 bed ex-council house for £455k on a small estate). Nearly half a million just to own a house that is central? No thanks! While it would be easy to be jealous of those on that estate who are living in £455k houses via the local authority, it didn't occur to DH and I - why would we be jealous of living on an estate which looked run down, dangerous, badly lit, poky rooms, tiny windows, etc???

If we have a family, we know that we will have to move out of central London, and unless we change our jobs, then yes we will have to commute. That's the choice we might make, and the choice we are LUCKY enough to have (unlike millions of others).

So, OP - what can you do to make your situation better for you and your family, instead of putting blame on others? Many would consider you very lucky to be able to even afford to buy a place in central London.

Splodge- I know its scary to think about moving out of your home but it can be a Good Thing. Dh and I used to own,but when he lost his job several years (8?) back from ill health we had the choice of keeping the home and losing everything else with no guarantee that we could maintain the house for very long at all, or selling up, clearing every penny we owed to anyone and moving into rented.

We chose the latter.

It broke my heart leaving the house where we brought home both of our (then) children, the house we found just 2 days after we married....

But we haven't looked back since. We owe nothing to anyone, and now have a house big enough for our needs in a gorgeous village near the University I attended (we moved for study- we could afford to do that without debt). DH was made redundant recently but becuase we are entitled toclaim HB should we choose, weare far less vulnerable and so have had mroe flexibility in finding ways around the situation (DH is retraining at Uni, his field ofcareeer has evaporated from our area).

It's hard to see beyond home ownership and selling but actually, there is an alternative, and not a bad one either.

Just want to point out that some areas of southeast london are only 1/2 hr from Bond Street on public transport and you can buy a 4 bed house here for £300,000. That's not much of a commute is it.

My house is HA not many council properties round here either.

I do work full time, minimum of 62 hours a week i pay ALL my bills and don't claim anything.

I do not earn anywhere near enough money to buy a property.

Am i scum then splodge? Please comment?

yes you are startingagain

You got me going for a minute there...............

We are in HA, it was council up until 2 years ago. Most councils ahve now sold there stock to private HA. We are not on benefits, pay full rent and everything else. DH works full time, we get child tax credits like others that have children, but thats it.

We may be able to claim HB now due to child benefit not being included in the calculation, but havent bothered yet.

We have a large flat screen tv as well

It always makes me laugh when people like the OP go on about large flat screen TV's. So what if people have them?
They are CHEAPER than small flat screens. DH and I went to buy one recently (after having an ancient miniature TV for about 15 years!) - we wanted a smallish one as we don't like them when they dominate the room. The staff in every shop we went to nearly laughed us out of the shop for wanting a small one , and explained that the large ones retail for much less than the smaller ones.
Not sure what my point was there.

(after having an ancient miniature TV for about 15 years!)

You felt you needed to justify this?

Just a point - those in Mixed developments are usually Housing Association owned. HAs are not for profit organisations, but they do have to be financially viable. Most of the improvements that you see going on are funded by the rents the tenants pay. Very few HAs have any Decent Home funding left.

The cost of putting a new bathroom in a HA property is about £1800 - £2000 pounds - the prices are massively reduced because of the economies of scale. So the spending is not as massive as you think.

Secondly - you have the HA negotiators to thank for all the amenities like roads, buses, leisure centres, schools and parks. They have worked very hard to bring in section 106 which allows a community ( even a proposed one) to be paid by the developer for loss of non tangiable loss of amenity eg a view or greater number of teachers required at a school. Without that legislation you could have a homogeneous middleclass community but it would have no infrastructure.

So think carefully about what you wish for.