To think that the welfare state is too generous if people in council flats have way more stuff than those on middle income can afford (no really lets have a discussion)

[splodge2001]

Maybe it's where I live (central london) maybe it's me (hmm, I don't think so) and It's definitely something that's been ruminating around my head for a while. An argument I've tried to unpick but I always come to the same conclusion.

I'm sure I'm going to be lynched but I'm keen to get other people's perspective on this....Here we go...

Where I live private housing is expensive and intermingled with social housing. It's hard to tell the difference between the social housing and the private dwellings. Certainly on the open market they fetch very similar prices. I'm feeling grumpy because we (DH and I) pay a lot of tax which goes to the people down the road in social housing, of course we should pay tax to support those on low earnings BUT, it does start to grate when though people in subsidised housing seem to have much bigger disposable incomes. eg. everyone I know who lives in the council flats near us can afford a car, we cannot. They can afford several holidays per year, we cannot

Isn't the welfare state just a bit too generous to enable those on low incomes to afford more than those on higher incomes? Surely the point of welfare isn't to subsidise cars or 42inch TVs.

I'm sure I'll be told to move out of London if I want more but this doesn't address the issue that I'm raising. Why should I subsidise people living in central london when I cant afford to live here myself.

Analogy moment....

I have 5k and would like to buy a car, instead I'm forced to give up my 5k to the government, who instead gives it to someone else so that they can buy a car. Boo hoo!!!

Go on let the stoning begin!!!!

pineapplechunks - don't think she is saying that at all. Perhaps what she is wondering is if people in social/council housing should start to pay market rent/price when they are doing well enough to afford to. Should they continue to get a 'price break' once they are doing well professionally/financially?

Of course, that opens up a whole other can of worms about how people might camouflage how well they're doing in order to continue being eligible for subsidies.

yes they'll fiddle their benefits/work cash in hand, or be in debt up to their eyeballs.

What SomeGuy said. Lots of people I know live on credit, mainly from catalogues or places like Bright House. They are paying back ££££ in payments every month, so they dont have disposable income but they have lots of material items to show off with.

well I still don't know what she wants to dicuss the welfare state or social housing

I agree you need to distinguish between poeple in council houses and people on benefits. I do sometimes wonder when I see people who I KNOW are on 100% benefits lining up in Argos to buy shed lods of stuff, time and time again. How can they afford all this shopping on state benefits? If they do have money over and above, should they be claiming?

anyway, this is going to kick off I warn you!!!

Sure the real problem is that private renting is too expensive and insecure in the UK, not with how people who live in social housing spend what disposable income they have?

Is this one of those undercover journalist type threads that I've been warned about? Only I'm still a fresh faced MN poster and just wanted to check?

They are probably earning money illegally and therefore certainly not paying taxes on what they earn. I have a very cynical view of the world as my dh works in law enforcement. There are a lot of leeches out there unfortunately.

It's one of those topics that is almost undiscussable. And yet I think it should be looked at.

I know there are people at the school gate who have 6 or 7 children, live in council owned property, neither parent works, and yet they have every device known to man (big telly, ds for every child, always new clothes, cars, holidays etc). And it does seem unfair. Because that isn't the point of the welfare state - it is supposed to make life fairer.

What I think is hard is that in the attempt to make life 'fairer', it is actually the middle income people who suffer. For example, many independent schools have been told they have to offer more free places, or they will lose charitable status (which would basically mean they couldn't afford to function). The upshot is they have to raise the fees so that children already at the school have to leave as they can no longer afford it. So the children who are being given free places are deemed 'more worthy' than the children who have to leave.

Similarly with universities, they want to subsidise more poorer families to go, which will mean massive fee rises, meaning that the middle income family children will not be able to afford to go.

I'm on benefits, we have a 50inch TV, PS3, Wii, leather couches

people would think we wre doing really well if they came in.

Thing is, all this was bought BEFORE we hit the shit times, bought from the money when DH could work.

We do buy stuff, we save and I sell on ebay. 99% of my kids clothes are 2nd hand charity shop bargains but I HUNT for good stuff and catch bargains on ebay.

Having said that my ex childminder and her hubby (also working FT) lived in a council house, they got it when younger. I did not begrudge them their house at all, they work hard and when it was given to them all those years ago they could not afford to buy. Yes they have a nice lifestyle, but I would hate to see them kicked out for that reason. I actually think council houses should go to deserving families on low income personally.

People in council houses have more disposable income because they are not paying off mortgages. You have an asset, they don't.

People in council houses (generally) have incomes too low to buy houses and accrue capital. You may feel hard done by because you feel that they're better off than you, but actually you are FAR better off, and will do much better in the long run.

If you're so jealous of their awesome lifestyles why don't you quit your job, give away all your money (to Shelter, yeah?) go on benefits and sign up for a council house?

Yeah. Thought not.

Someguy is right - credit companies make a fortune in interest off these people.

Very (formerl Littlewoods direct). I opened an account with them last year - they gave me £1000 credit to start with, 3 months interest free on most purchases (slightly longer on others), 5% minimum repayment if you don't want to go interest free, APR 39.4% - in the space of 16 monts they upped my credit limit to £2050 (which is all very kind of them and all that - but ermm no thanks).

Capital one - £1000 credit given to me on their credit card - 30% apr (just gone up to 39.7%)

Both of these credit accounts I got while on benefits and they knew I was on benefits.

And there are 100's of other companies that will give more credit - and higher interest rates, with low minimum repayments..

"I know there are people at the school gate who have 6 or 7 children, live in council owned property, neither parent works, and yet they have every device known to man (big telly, ds for every child, always new clothes, cars, holidays etc). And it does seem unfair. Because that isn't the point of the welfare state - it is supposed to make life fairer."

Then they've either got generous friends/relatives (haha), have massive amounts of debt, or are getting money from elsewhere. Not even the CTC for 7 children - minus the cost of feeding them all etc - will leave enough money for all that stuff if they're going to pay in cold hard cash.

of ffs educate yourself please I'm in central london in Social Housing I am not on benefits and my family never has been we are working class cannot afford a car or even one holiday, we work all the hours god sends to provde a living for ourselves and I am training to be a midwife,does that make you happy?

We live in a privately rented house, DP works, not a highly paid job but he does work - I stay at home looking after DS, we do get tax credits and partial housing benefit etc.

We have some friends who live down the road in a council house of about the same size as ours, probably very slightly bigger, neither work, they have one DC similar age to our DS. DP is convinced they are "better off" than we are. I think this is ridiculous - DP drives a car, he has a PS3 and loads of games for it, a huge widescreen TV (which I hate) we don't have foreign holidays but we do go on weekends to visit friends every 6-12 months or so, and can afford to holiday in this country probably once every 2 years. We run a full size dishwasher and can afford to buy furniture and baby equipment new when we need to, though we stick to the cheaper things. Our rent is more than theirs would be and we are currently paying full council tax (should be less but we were overpaid).

splodge2001 I would imagine that ya 5k has more chance of going into a MP's pockets rather than the people who have council housing!!!

My best friend lives in a council house with her partner and two young daughters they both work hard for everything they have!!

So YABU!!

I don't think the OP is being unreasonable. She is not talking about people who work hard, save, don't have holidays etc, or who are in genuine need, but happen to live in social housing. She is talking about people who appear to not be working but still seem to have a very affluent lifestyle. I still think those people are probably earning illegally as I don't imagine you can live like that on benefits.

Most of the stuff is more than likely on the never never or they bought it before they went on benefits

Holidays again probably on a high interest credit card

They don't have to spend/save money for a boiler breakdown or a plumber to fix the toilet

Or they are fiddling the benefits

The government do NOT pay enough money for people to live like this no matter what the DM might say, there has to be something else going on

But surely, council housing is a benefit in that the rent is not market rent but much lower.

if those in council houses with good incomes were forced to pay market rates than we would have to pay less tax and neither of us would be able to afford a car - then id be happy

oh and trust me the people who appear to have lots on benefits are using these credit cards/catlogues with extortionate interest rates and end up/are seriously in debt. So personally instead of being jealous so should feel sorry for them.

" social housing and the private dwellings"

snort

BertieBotts, you have the right of it. No-one I know in a council house has had the ability to buy furniture, own a car or have big tellys.

The real issue here is the lack of affordable housing in this country for those working on low incomes. That's why it seems that people in council houses have the good life, they're the only ones paying reasonable housing costs!

Oh, and for the record, OP YABVVVVVVVVU. And ignorant.

LOL at council housing being a benefit.

Mouldy damp walls and large areas of social deprivation, schools you mostly wouldn't send a dog to and high crime rates, lovely where do I sign up

In some countries, if you are in public housing or on the 'dole' you are not 'allowed' to go abroad on holidays. Even IF you have the money to do so.