To think that the welfare state is too generous if people in council flats have way more stuff than those on middle income can afford (no really lets have a discussion)

[splodge2001]

Maybe it's where I live (central london) maybe it's me (hmm, I don't think so) and It's definitely something that's been ruminating around my head for a while. An argument I've tried to unpick but I always come to the same conclusion.

I'm sure I'm going to be lynched but I'm keen to get other people's perspective on this....Here we go...

Where I live private housing is expensive and intermingled with social housing. It's hard to tell the difference between the social housing and the private dwellings. Certainly on the open market they fetch very similar prices. I'm feeling grumpy because we (DH and I) pay a lot of tax which goes to the people down the road in social housing, of course we should pay tax to support those on low earnings BUT, it does start to grate when though people in subsidised housing seem to have much bigger disposable incomes. eg. everyone I know who lives in the council flats near us can afford a car, we cannot. They can afford several holidays per year, we cannot

Isn't the welfare state just a bit too generous to enable those on low incomes to afford more than those on higher incomes? Surely the point of welfare isn't to subsidise cars or 42inch TVs.

I'm sure I'll be told to move out of London if I want more but this doesn't address the issue that I'm raising. Why should I subsidise people living in central london when I cant afford to live here myself.

Analogy moment....

I have 5k and would like to buy a car, instead I'm forced to give up my 5k to the government, who instead gives it to someone else so that they can buy a car. Boo hoo!!!

Go on let the stoning begin!!!!

Actually if I'm really honest up until 5 years ago I probably would have had an opinion like splodge.. I certainly used to have a bee in my bonnet about single mums

Until my ex ran off with a 16 year old and left me struggling to pay the mortgage, on my own with two small children,subsequently the house had to go and I had to go into council housing on benefits (although I have worked pt)

What I'm trying to say is life has a nasty way of turning on you. Nothing is ever black and white and in many ways I would turn the clock back and have my previous life (apart from dd2 who is my current partners child)

i'll tell you when chegirl

WHEN THOSE THAT ARE PAYING FOR YOU TO LIVE IN IT HAVE LESS THAN YOU DO

the proof of the pudding is that

YOU ALL SEEM TO OWN A CAR WHEN I COULD NOT CONSIDER BEING ABLE TO AFFORD ONE

SORRY FOR SHOUTING

oh splodge,

A tax "is not a voluntary payment or donation, but an enforced contribution, exacted pursuant to legislative authority" and is "any contribution imposed by government [?] whether under the name of toll, tribute, tallage, gabel, impost, duty, custom, excise, subsidy, aid, supply, or other name."[1]

I have already tried to explain that you are not paying for anything.

Even following your logic, you are totally discounting the fact that many people also pay taxes, and are happy to pay for council housing. Some of them even live in it!!! Imagine!!!

The venom began with your OP IMO...

Chegirl, everybody is entitled to live in decent accomodation. The council has a responsibility to provide that and we, the taxpayer, a responsibility to fund it for those who cannot fund it themselves.

However, there is an issue with the standard of living of people working long hours on very low income who are not in council property. Likewise, there is an issue for those who are just above the threshold for help. They often struggle more than those earning a little less.

The government will never be able to get it right by everyone.

I am on jobseekers and rent/coucil tax benefit (looking for a full time job)

I JUST manage to scrape by each week. I COULD NOT afford a car.

(I private rent btw)

It would not make me better off having more kids even though i am a single mum.

Some people in council houses are taking the mick with all the money they get and what they spend it on (not that what they buy should be of anyones concern) and never botherin got look for work but for goodness sake, that is not all council house dwellers. That is such a generelisation, and so wrong in many cases.

So penalise the poor and not the rich????

This thread is making me shocked and disappointed in humanity in equal measure...

But you don't have less than we do. You own a house. Thats an asset

We have two cars actually. One is provided for my disabled husband who cannot walk more than a few yards or use public transport. Without it he could not work.

The other one is a 15 year old clio that my MIL paid for when our DD was diagnosed with cancer. I work part time for the local children's centre and need it to visit disabled children in their homes.

We are living the high life and no mistake.

How do you know you have less than other people unless you look into their private lives?

How are you paying 'for it' exactly? How do you know they are not contributing, have contributed or will soon?

Why do you expect someone else to come and repair your private property for you?

YOU don't have to pay for it though Splodge - the Govt does through taxes which anybody working pays.

There needs to be more social housing (or affordable housing) for the many people unable to get a mortgage or afford the private rental market. (I agree that some people have done well from council housing - my previous place was ex council and over £700 a month to rent).

If you take a job with the trust I work for then you can have a car - you won't own it but can lease it. It costs the trust less than paying my petrol costs.

So - am lost now. I am in a council place, have a car and a flat screen tv - am I subsidised or subsidising if I work and pay tax too?

so if we all stopped paying taxes where would the money for social housing come from?????

See I'm confused too... if I live in a council house and pay tax is that good or bad?

If we all stopped paying tax - wherre would the ambulance come from if you were seriously injured? It doesn't just go on housing.

Of course anyone working pays tax but doesnt it get an itsy witsy bit silly when youre paying through the nose for other people to have things you can't afford

My mum gave me her car (she upgraded hers) and some of my earnings and ds disability allowance pays for the petrol, tax and insurance.

I've only had the car for about 8 months. Without it, I wouldn't have my job (I finish my shift late at night) and if I didn't have my job I would be even more reliant on benefits and further pissing of those people who are moaning about us lot in council houses. I just wish Asda would give me more than 15 hours work.....

My housing association made a surplus splodge - so where does the tax money come in?

the vast bulk of UK tax revenue is used to fund public services, so splodge is well within her rights to question how her tax pounds are used. They are not a levy collected by some feudal lord to do as he sees fit.

benefits and social housing were designed to form a safety net to people who can't provide for themselves. what it means to be poor has moved on, to the system's detriment.

The attitudes displayed by some on this thread are of no surprise to me at all.

I have a rl friend who has the very same opinions of splodge. When she first used to spout her crap at me it used to make me cry, then i used to get angry and argue back and then I realised that it would never ever matter what I said because basically all she can see is the fact that I am on benefits and I live in a HA property. She totally ignores the struggles that come from being a single mum.

"so if we all stopped paying taxes where would the money for social housing come from?????"

splodge, there is no option to stop paying taxes. And a lot of us don't want to stop, as we are happy for the taxes to fund social housing. Even if we weren't, it wouldn't matter. It is the government's money.

Is any of this sinking in yet?

from splodge ''but the point is that many of the workers in London cannot afford to live there.

believe me, most of the people in the council flats near us are not working in central london.

It seems mad that the gov keeps them there whilst those who work nearby commute in''

err I work and live in central london in HA property and I know a fair few people that also do, I love how you seem to know the private lives of all the peopple in your area. The gov/HA 'keep' us there because it is where we are from/work. Keyworker housing is designed to house those on low incomes in keyworker occupations near where they work so there are schemes to help.

..... and as was said waaayyy back - they get it all from Bright House et al and pay through the nose. You could do the same. No - thought not.

When you have no aspirations and no hope of things ever being any better you tend to go for short term gratification. Believe me I see it daily at work - consider yourself fortunate splodge.

Splodge I thought like you until a year ago.

I worked damn hard. I earned a very good wage. I had a good life. I begrudged the tax I paid, and the fact I was "funding" others.

Then the life I had bit me on the arse. I ended up one of those single mums in council housing, surviving only because of Government money, from hardearned taxes. And I thanked god I lived in a country like this. Without this system, and these taxes me and my children would be in an old fashioned workhouse.

How do you know what is round the corner Splodge? Can you not see your taxes as going into an "insurance policy" in case your life goes tits up and you need some government help? Instead of stressing about people who live down the road from you, who may have a big TV but probably owe a shite load of money and maybe have not fed their kids that week??

"They are not a levy collected by some feudal lord to do as he sees fit."

err... yes they are, goodnightmoon.

Paying housing benefit that goes to private landlords is surely more of a concern for tax payers than social housing?

MORE social housing would be cheaper for tax payers.

the thing is that London has got so expensive that the only people who can live here, ironically enough are the poor and of course those on higher incomes are paying disproportionately for this.

And there are enough 'poor' people waving around luxury items for the rest of us struggling with broken toilets to get a little bit miffed

WHEN THOSE THAT ARE PAYING FOR YOU TO LIVE IN IT HAVE LESS THAN YOU DO

the proof of the pudding is that

YOU ALL SEEM TO OWN A CAR WHEN I COULD NOT CONSIDER BEING ABLE TO AFFORD ONE

SORRY FOR SHOUTING wink

What because DH busted his gut years ago for the majorit of the stuff we now own we shouldn't have it now we're on benefits. and the bits we've scrimped and saved to buy since being on benefits we should't have etiher?

And no - we don't own a car - couldn't even begin to imagine being able to afford one either. Unless of course one of us gets a job paying 12.5k a year or more in which case we could possibly squeeze an old banger into the budget.