To think that the welfare state is too generous if people in council flats have way more stuff than those on middle income can afford (no really lets have a discussion)

[splodge2001]

Maybe it's where I live (central london) maybe it's me (hmm, I don't think so) and It's definitely something that's been ruminating around my head for a while. An argument I've tried to unpick but I always come to the same conclusion.

I'm sure I'm going to be lynched but I'm keen to get other people's perspective on this....Here we go...

Where I live private housing is expensive and intermingled with social housing. It's hard to tell the difference between the social housing and the private dwellings. Certainly on the open market they fetch very similar prices. I'm feeling grumpy because we (DH and I) pay a lot of tax which goes to the people down the road in social housing, of course we should pay tax to support those on low earnings BUT, it does start to grate when though people in subsidised housing seem to have much bigger disposable incomes. eg. everyone I know who lives in the council flats near us can afford a car, we cannot. They can afford several holidays per year, we cannot

Isn't the welfare state just a bit too generous to enable those on low incomes to afford more than those on higher incomes? Surely the point of welfare isn't to subsidise cars or 42inch TVs.

I'm sure I'll be told to move out of London if I want more but this doesn't address the issue that I'm raising. Why should I subsidise people living in central london when I cant afford to live here myself.

Analogy moment....

I have 5k and would like to buy a car, instead I'm forced to give up my 5k to the government, who instead gives it to someone else so that they can buy a car. Boo hoo!!!

Go on let the stoning begin!!!!

of course there needs to be social housing and i feel the conversation has moved on from who deserves it to where it should be.

I dont know what the answer is but im just pointing out that many of those very vulnerable people don't work in the areas they live in, and the people who do work there are forced to commute miles and miles into work.

its interesting that many people are concerned that the social networks of those in council housing should not be broken by forcing them to move out whilst those on middle incomes are forced to do just that.

I think this has always been the case. I remember being one of the last houses in the village to get a video player - my parents' cleaner and all their friends had them years and years before we did. However, they spent their money on insurances, pensions, BUPA, private education for us and the property because when the chips were down, they didn't want to (and wouldn't have been able to) rely on social benefits. I think to an extent it is a matter or priorities and whether you would be prepared to accept help from the government if you didn't take out insurance and lost your home/lost your job/lost your health etc etc

I think we should ship all the dross out to colonies in the suburbs. We could house them in big buildings and seperate the sexes to stop them breeding. Oh and how about getting them to work to pay their keep while their in there. Is there still a need for picked Oakum?

Why the bloody hell shouldnt those who were born in say Islington get to stay there? Why should they have to move out to make way for the more deserving? Who pushed the bloody prices up in the first place?

There are thousands of us who were born and bred in parts of London that have now been appropriated by the more affluent classes. I wouldve loved to have stayed in the place I and the rest of my family were bought up. Fat bleeding chance. So I moved and made my home elsewhere. I dont begrudge those who stayed in their council flats - why the hell would I? Hands up who has lived in council.

Moving people around to suit the needs of those with more power is social engineering and we all know how well that works

fandango

dont get me started on those f*ing dogs!

apparently they are not only vicious, but f-ing expensive too

maybe i'll start a new thread called

AIBU to think that if you can afford a nasty pit bull type dog on benefits then you're getting too much

haven't read the whole thread can't be arsed.

What I want to say is I live in a council house I'm on benefits although I do havew a pt job.

Oh my god I so so so so wish I could afford 3 holidays a year have flat screen tv's and a rich lifestyle and not have a 50 pound a week food budget to feed 5 of us so I can stick the rest of the money on the gas meter. Splodge what planet are you on?

Splodge you can come to my house. I can show you my broken wardrobes and chest of drawers that I cannot afford to replace (and no I don't have a wii or a flatscreen telly, my 10 year old telly was donated to me by my mum as was most of my stuff.), the dodgy lock on my front door (which the council never fix properly.

people like you need to stop tarring everone with the same brush

fine if they don't act like bloody animals. n theory fine in principle it doesn't appear to work does it...

sheep... sadly we dont get to see you... only the front door pissing mad dog owning firework throwing maniac loons. Please come and live here

and you can come to mine sheepgomeep

and ill show you all our second hand/broken furniture, our cesspit of a kitchen which stinks because the waste pipe is joined to the bathroom, our broken toilet, washing machine, mouldy bathroom

if youre in council housing its probable that at some point someone is gonna come and fix your stuff. no one is gonna fix mine and you all assume that you're on the bottom rung.

Again i'll say why do i have to subsidise others to have what i cant afford myself

Well said chegirl - this thread is disgusting!

How about instead of bitching about all these horrible poor people taking up space where the middle classes want to live, and ruining schools with their thick children, people campaign for more affordable housing? How about more council houses being build, stop selling them off, stricter controls on private landlords and developers?

There should be more social housing. This thread seems all about bigotry and bitterness.

I live in social housing, I don't claim benefits and I pay my rent. My rent isn't subsidised - it's based on the value of my flat, the costs involved with maintaining the buildings and running the housing association. Private rents in this area are double what mine are, because people are making profits out of them.

they do get far too much. I know a young mum who is getting every benefit thrown at her. the more kids she has the better off she'll be. so that leaves plenty money for the latest gadgets...

There are loads of cases like this near where I live. And they have nice cars, and nice TVs. But as someone said it could all be on credit so it's not like they own it outright.

argento

you are living in subsidised rent

you've just admitted you are not paying market value.

tax payers are supplementing your rent

i bet you have a car right?

i live in a council house

if i could have afforded to live privately then i absolutely would have done. i was not given a choice about where i live. granted, i was allowed to choose areas in which i would live, but failing to accept a house in a particularly unpleasant part of that area would have rendered myself and my family homeless for yet another year. so i got dumped in a high crime area. my house has a damp problem, and there is a sewage problem nearby too. my house and car have been vandalised on many occasions. i would leave if i could! but despite the high crime rates and nasty big dogs, i also live surrounded by some very decent people.

and yes, i did confess to owning a car...
so shoot me. and the millions of other low paid people in this country who are essential car users in supporting roles, trying to make this world a better place.

splodge, do you even know what a housing association is?

Well said, argento

Splodge - its your house or are you renting?

If its your house why would you expect someone else to fix it? If you rent why doesnt the landlord fix it?

Why would expect a tenent to pay for repairs on a property they do not own? Do you expect those who rent from private landlords to do so?

Council properties are often in a very bad state of repair. They have been badly maintained for years. They are old. A lot of them in the prized inner city are over a hundred years old, with hundred year old problems. The more modern ones are often worse because they were built with inferior materials. They have damp, mould, condensation and vermin problems.

How on earth do you know how people get their money, what they do with it, how deserving they are? Do they tell you?
You are making assumptions based on your own predjudices.

There are thousands of decent people living in social housing. Being poor does not equate to lazy and criminal.

Unless we have somehow been catapulted back to Victorian times and I missed the gap in the space time continium.

And why do you think you deserve a better quality of life than your neighbours?

oh and i live in one of the only houses without a top of the range flat screen tv, admittedly... but i choose not to get ripped off by extortionate companies such as brighthouse, or to have the provident knocking at my door...

the fact is that no matter where any of us get our income from do we really have the right to judge how it is spent?

to get council and most social housing you have to have a local connection to the authority managing the housing stock. so if you want to apply for a council home in islington for example you would either need to already live there, work there or have family there. you can't just decide where to live.

Actually splodge I believe my housing association had a surplus last year, so I'm not sure how taxpayers are supplementing them?

How do you think social housing rent is set - they look at market rate, cut it in half and then taxpayers make up the difference?

I have two cars, a wide screen TV, 3 pitbulls and 5 kids as it happens.

Me - in council housing.

Working part time

Income £14,200

Flat screen TV (bought and paid for when I worked full time).

Brand new car - lease car through work so not mine.

Thank you taxpayer for my subsidised rent (oh that's partly me - right)?

Where is my council property - 2 floors up on the local sink estate.

Until a month ago I was privately renting and - erm - costing the tax payer (and that includes me) £500 a month in rent allowance. Now my rent is subsidised and I am NOT going to apologise for it to the likes of the OP who is fortunate enough to be able to own her own home. I will NEVER own this place (nor would I want to).

Life has a good way of smacking you right between the eyes sometimes and I am GRATEFUL to the taxpayer (oh and I'll say it again THAT INCLUDES ME) for my subsidised rent.

no one from the council will ever come and fix my wardrobes, chest of drawers, they will not replace my front door (only do a patch job) they will not ever come and do my garden which is full of barbed wire and pot holes and totally inadequte fencing which my dd1 toppled over onto a road with a 5 foot drop and injured herself. I have been waiting for 3 years for them to replace a broken window (again from a previous tenant)

I used to own my own house with an ex till he buggered off forced me to sell our beautiful house and was forced into council accomodation with a rent that is actually higher than the mortgage I used to pay.

At least you have an asset YOUR HOUSE. woohoo aren't you lucky, Id give almost anything to have my own house again,

My issue with you is you tar everyone with the same brush and that my dear frankly pisses me off

Some off the remarks on this thread are the worst I've ever read on MN ..and I've read a lot ..my heart fucking bleeds for all you high earners and the taxes you pay ..now I'm off to piss in my neighbours doorway and set the dog on a little old lady

splodge, I am a housing association tenant- the housing association owns commercial and residential property across london, including most of Regent St. The profit they make from renting out this property goes to facilitate their social housing, which you have to be a keyworker to get. They have owned this property for more than 50 years. Much of it is Victorian (you know, like your views)

And I'm in -gasp- almost central London. I am a teacher, teaching in one of those awful schools you spoke about earlier. I would not be able to afford private rent in this area.

So... does that make me deserving or undeserving?

Am I a goodie or a baddie? I forget...

JollyPirate, great post.

I have sofas that cost £600 each. I bought them 2 years ago when I had equity from the house I'd just sold and was living in a lovely privately rented house. To my neighbours when I moved in I probably looked like I was milking it.

Roll on 2 years later. Ex-H lost job, then left. We got rehoused to a council place, I'm now a single mum working parttime, with subsidised tax credits/benefits/rent. If I werent, my kids and I would be on the street. I still pay tax, and have done since I started working at 16. I still pay NI too. But I get a bit of help.

And I do have a car. I sold my nicer, bigger, newer one and downsized drastically but I still have a car. Should I give that up because I recieve housing benefit?

and I have a laptop. (bought when I had money) and a wii I pay the Littlewoods catalogue £20 a month for.

But obviously I shouldnt be allowed this stuff because I am on (partial) benefits.

Wow!!!
Not every 'high earner' on this thread has been rude, snooty or ignorant. In fact, very few considering how these threads normally pan out. Nor has everyone who has made snide comments been 'high earners'.

Oh and I'd probably consider us high earners but atm we have practically ziltch disposible income mainly due to very high mortgage so my house is also falling apart.

Where does this idea come from that council housing is some sort of luxurious alternative to buying a house?

Its been about 7 years since I lived in my 3rd floor, 2 bed, walk up flat but have things changed that much?

Does the heating work now? Are the windows no longer made of rotten wood or permadamp metal? Do the lifts work every day? Do they clean the communal areas more than twice a year now? If you get an infestation to they send someone to get rid now? If your window gets broken by someone else to they replace it within a year or so now? Do they come and fix the damp? Do they fix the toilet when it leaks?

Blimey things have improved then.

There are laws that state landlords have to keep their properties in a decent state arnt there? Social landlords seem to get away with this fairly effeciently.

Major works are undertaken maybe every 20 years or so. So they put in double glazing and new plumbing and then they leave it for another 20years.

Why would anyone begrudge a family decent living conditions even if they are on benefits? How on earth do people get such insight into the financial doings of their despised neighbours if they dont even know their names?

So what is this thread based on apart from misplaced envy, discontentment, predjudice and a unpleasant dislike of the 'underclasses'?

it's a shame that this conversation is turning venomous,

I care about who has what so long as i have to pay for it.

i have a right to protest, argue whatever i want when i feel that the money i earn is being misspent

i will totally and utterly shut up when i dont have to cough up

if im paying for other people to own cars, why arent they paying me to own one?