To think that this Times article about selfish mothers is vile

[mumbot]

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/janice_turner/article6916343.ece

A bitter and one sided view of motherhood. Do you agree?

WilfSell....what the hell are you on...?

I was making a point. That point being that the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater here.

In the very appropriate horror at the twats who left the note, and the recognition of the shocking neglect and bigotry toward older and disabled people in our society, the notion that somehow mothers, or P&C spaces are to blame for this is spreading.

Of course, parenting in general is not the same as parenting a disabled child. Of course, older disabled people are some of the most excluded members of our society.

But the extrapolation of this into the 'just get on with it, we managed, so should you' rant is simplistic. It is a very short step from this 'culture of entitlement' nonsense to removing benefits, closing down public services, and reminding everyone, including the old and disabled, that they should 'just get on with it'.

I know I'm on my own here. Am a bit shocked that more of you can't see the rightwing anti-feminist tone buried in the article tbh. Or maybe you can and you think that's a good thing. Oh well.

DP, I don't expect for a minute you will have any idea what I'm on.

When I visit my family in California, there aren't so many concessions towards children. Can't recall any specific P & T parking places, although the strategy seems to be to get a big 4 X 4 for the little ones and don't care whose care you scratch in the process...

right-wing anti-feminist tone....?

wilf...it's about P&C spaces in supermarkets.....

Wilf I can see where you are coming from. I think there is some real nastiness about re mothers generally ATM. Witness the rubbish written about Coleen daring to go out for a night out and looking nice v photos of celeb mums daring not to look perfect.

I also hate the demonising of children e.g. feral youths, children crying abuse to get adults in trouble blah blah.

Dont get me started on the pressure on pregnant women to a.act as if the are not pregnant so not to inconvienence anyone and b. allow themselves to be treated as infants because they are pregnant and therefore a mere vessel.

But I do think there are some parents who have been raised as little Tsars and Tsarainas (is that right?) who are now doing exactly the same thing to their children.

I dont think mothers/fathers or children should be seen and not heard or thankful for being allowed to enter society. But I think to bring up children thinking the world revolves around them is doing them a huge diservice.

BTW I did have children 18/16 years ago but I have also had them 6 and 2 years ago. I am due my 5th in the spring. So I am not entirely divorced from modern child rearing

just read the link
thought it was very good and made some very good points.

Janice doesn't know her buggies! The Quinny Zapp, in fact, folds down smaller than any other buggy on the market. Is Janice perhaps confusing it with the monster that is the Quinny Buzz?

I think the article is spot on. In fact, it's so spot on I'm going to say it again. SPOT ON.

mumbot Thanks for drawing my attention to it, really. I'm genuinely relieved to find I'm not the only person sick to death of Little Gods and the Little God Mothers.

chegirl you talk a lot of sense. I agree with everything in your last post.

Thank you Crazycat

Not just the mothers lindsay have you ever experienced the wrath of a father of a little God/ess? Blimey!

DandyLioness LOL! yeah, she would have, too...

chegirl I know, I know. Parents used to apologise if their child was badly behaved, and make the child apologise too. Now it seems there is a dick-measuring competition going on among a certain class of father to see who can install the worst manners into their offspring. Sheesh.

No-one on this thread of course. I talk of others only.

Well done Janice Turner - a nice article, written with humour and honesty and certainly not vile. There has been a massive shift in manners and attitudes in recent years. All too often nowadays everything HAS to revolve around someone's children, irrespective of the effect this has on others. Ms Turner seems to have offended the OP by daring to say so.

the op is heavy with emotive terms.tad over reacting

because me-me-me parents do exist with their gargantuan prams and massive egos.some are truly awful

I think the journalist made a big leap from one disgusting note which 99.5% of mothers would not condone, let alone write.

Earlier in the week in The Times a mother's complete adaptation to her infant's need was being lauded by a prominent psychology. He did also comment that a mother's adaptation should diminish as the child got older.

So it seems to me that journalist is probably in the right place for her stage of motherhood. But it doesn't mean that mothers of young babies aren't in the right place for theirs. Even if it is a bit baby-centric.

women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article6910045.ece

I do agree with the article to a certain extent. Certainly. a person planning to use public transport should use a small collapsible buggy. A Zapp would be ideal. However, it is not fair to say that all mums should collapse a buggy. When my eldest was 2 and I had a newborn I had to use a bus. Couldn't drive as had csection. Not quite sure how I could have collapsed buggy whilst holding newborn and making sure toddler was ok.

The note on the car was horrendous and I can understand the write being furious. Mu mum has just had a stroke and in now partially sighted and I would be furious if anyone treated her like that.

WELL DONE JANICE - I saw this thread and was bloody horrified. I like this article!!

I use public transport all the time and have a bugaboo. I have it because my child faces me, because she is comfortable and cosy in it and because we don't have a car and walk for hours each day with it. I see it as the modern equivalent of the SilverCross pram I had as a baby.
We get on and off London buses without a hitch, sometimes waiting for ages to be allowed on one that doesn't have the maximum amount of pushcharis on already, and we get on and off trains and tube trains. I am courteous and polite. Sometimes I have had to get rush hour trains and my fellow passengers have always been very helpful and nice about it.
I don't like this article because it critisises people like me, doing our best to lead an interesting, fulfilling (and cheap) life with a young child, and gives all sorts of fodder for the braying anti-mothers in society who think we should all be at home all day doing housework.

I found the artical very humerous

Everything has to be taken in context though!

Whilst it is horrid that her disabled parents had the vile note left for them, I have seen plenty of people park in P&C parking that are fully able bodied, no children. I complained to my local tescos when a couple (40's - 50's) took the last parking space both walking well etc.. and was told there is nothing that could be done! For me I don't car particularly if its near the store I just want more space to be able to get DD in and out of the car without scratching my or someone else's car!

I think that in my supermarkets local to me they have made the general spaces smaller than they used to be so if you don't get a parent and child space and cna't find one miles away it can be a pain! but I would never expect an elderly or disabled person to have to walk far from the store likewise I wouldn't resent them parking in a p&c space!

Ref buggies I have to agree its not the end of the world if you have to fold your buggy for godsake if you can't be asked to walk then you have to accept that it might not be able to stay up!

Ref the buses and tubes I always offer my seat up even now to anyone who looks like they are struggling/elderly/pregnant (even though I pg myself if they are further on than me!).

I remember commuting to work on crutches with a broken ankle and never getting a seat offered to me!

Being a mother 10yrs ago had to be a lot different to now, instance I bet not both sets of parents worked full time as much as they do now! Childcare and train travel has raised consistantly higher than inflation/salary increases.....also house prices are considerably higher!

If we'd had children 10yrs ago i probably wouldn't have to work full time!

Janice Turner has hit the nail on the head.

Like many others, I am both a mother of young children and a daughter of an older mother.

I endorse everything she says about the arrogant,assumed entitlement of young parents.

Old people are far more in need and deserving of preferential parking places,seats on buses/trains etc. If such places are available they should automatically be for old people.
They have worked for decades, paid taxes for decades, contributed for decades to this country. Long ago they too have been young parents who managed without special attention.

Shame and disgrace on anyone who would leave such an arrogant,cowardly and disrespectful note on her parent's car.

I agree that it is common courtesy to fold a buggy. Especially if the child is not in said buggy but taking up a seat.

But at the risk of sounding like exactly the kind of entitled so-and-so criticised in the article, it does seem strange that it is the law to wear a seatbelt and to have a child in a specially adapted seat in a car.

But in a bus it is considered completely safe to have children not only not in carseats or safetybelts but actually standing up, holding poles that are probably too big for them to get a proper grip on.

Surely safety concerns are the same on a bus or a car?