To think that this Times article about selfish mothers is vile

[mumbot]

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/janice_turner/article6916343.ece

A bitter and one sided view of motherhood. Do you agree?

ISNT - I suspect that a lot of the stuff written in the papers is about London and doesn't really reflect the country as a whole. If parents in London are repeatedly having these problems then there needs to be an improvement of the transport system and public spaces.

millyr - I'm with you on this. I have never encountered any hostility about my DC in public. There are always the odd narky adult but I can cope with them - as long as the general ethos of welcoming or at least neutral.

Yesterday for example we went to a garden centre to look at the christmas stuff - just me, DD and DS#2. We had lunch - after we'd picked up our food we couldn't find anywhere to sit, kids were hungry and food was going cold. Lady started waving madly from the back of the restaurant to show there was a table free next to them and her partner came and carried DD's tray for her. Later we went over to look at a christmas tree that had a sort of animatronic dog lying underneath it - it was 'sleeping' and then it raised it's head. The old man next to us was watching DS getting closer and closer to the dog and reaching out to touch it, and he barked to make DS jump Much hilarity all round and DS chatted to the old man for a minute.

That is by and large the sort of experience we have.

article not vile at all - just another dull boring media rant, full of pointless stereotypes, designed to wind parents up & generate 'comments'. YAWN.

But I do get very annoyed at all the able bodied people without children (with them at least) who part in the parent/family parking at my local supermarkets (plenty of other parks nearby) & I do feel inclined to leave them a note of annoyance. I certainly would never do that to older folk though.

I blame the supermarkets in the first place though. Parking spaces are generally way too tiny. But I do appreciate the parent parking - when I get a space.

MillyR - I do wonder if it is a London thing. I have never lived in the UK with children before moving to London a couple of months ago, so I can't compare.

Orm - that sounds lovely and that was generally what I was used to before moving here, hence probably why I feel it more astutely? Or perhaps I'm just being paranoid (or have been spending too much time reading threads on MN )

The pace of life in London is so fast I found living there whilst single and jet setting fantastic. However with small children it can be very very hard and you are often made to feel you are an annoyance and an encumbrance who gets in the way and you should not be there. So we moved and found life very different in the south west. I often use a buggy on the bus and as long as its out of rush hour the only other passengers are the elderly and other SAHPs we all seem to help each other. Dd loves to abandon me and sit next to random old ladies who appear to have their day brightened by 10 minutes chat with a 3 year old.

ISNT and Avril, I agree with what you've said about this foul article. The readers comments have made me feel really sad in fact.

There is SO much hatred and intolerance towards others, not just children... one journey on the northern line in rush hour and you can see that . All the bitching and sniping about moving down the carriage, newspapers in people's faces.

IMO a lot of this hostility is driven by lack of personal space (which of course means London is rife with it). However, I come across way more intolerance towards babies/small children in the leafy suburbs of Surrey (where my family live) than I do in South London (where we live and where there are lots and lots of babies...).

I know the world would be boring if we were all nice to each other all the time but I do find all this really very depressing. The media have such a responsibility when it comes to public opinion, it worries me when I see tripe like this. All it does is serve to vindicate the intolerant.

Ooh same part of the world as me kerala!

I think the London-specific problems happen because it is so crowded, and so big, and so impersonal, and the pace is so fast. Of course these things apply elsewhere, but they are magnified here, in the same way that we get the worst of the crime etc as well.

Yes lots of people are lovely, but there is a general air of impatience, of people on the edge of losing their tempers quite a lot, especially the drivers (they are my biggest bugbear). I do my best to battle the general tide of arsiness by going around smiling, apologising profusely and smiling at people i recognise. But sometimes it all just gets me down. Then you read a piece like this

I agree with the 'parents have a sense of entilement' point of view.

You see it all over MN. there was an threda weeks ago about how others should give up the sofas in coffee shops for her and her kids and pushchair. Ther always threads about how 'I can't possibly leave the house, so my parenst will ahev to drive a 500 mile round trip every month to see us if they want to' or 'my MIL will not babysit every wednesday so I can go to my yoga class as she goes to Bingo, but she can go out whenever she likes slefish cow' or 'my sil keeps buying my baby beige clothes when I've made it quite clear I only like him in pale blue, why is she so mean'

It's rife on here.

People do often appear to think the world revolves around them once they have children and normal bounds of manners and compromise go out the window and everyone has to do/say what they want. COS they have a BABY you know.

Obviously they/we are not all like this, but there'a alot of it about.

the moral of the story is there is always some jerk thinking of themself. Let us each try not to be that jerk.

It's a sick society we live in - and it comes at everyone from all angles.

I have observed so much hatred against mothers who are out and about with their children, and, sad to say, have also witnessed first hand just how bitchy and selfish other mothers can be - even to each other!

When I became a mother I spent months heading to parent and toddler groups, certain that I would now find a friend in the "new mummy" crowd. Instead I was faced with a barrage of bitchiness and intolerance which wouldn't have been out of place in a playground. In the same respect I have been utterly struggling to fold my buggy on the bus or train with a 6 month old and bags in tow and not one person will come to my aid - in fact they are perfectly content to stand and tut.

A little bit of me is wholly upset and angry every time something like this happens - after all I've had a baby, I really do struggle with day to day stuff on my own, and I don't know why, but I was expecting....a little more kindness from strangers..

Perhaps I am just incredibly naive? I am quite a young mother and a young looking person too (I often get mistaken for being under 18, despite being 25), thus a lot of assumptions are made about me. Truth is I am married, educated, working and studying a post-grad course, but it's clearly always assumed that I am teenage, irresponsible, on benefits...etc etc.
I also live in a largely upper-middle class area and have seen the cruelty that the different levels inflict on each other; elderly and middle-class mothers alike. The competition is incredible. What happened to the old adage "It's nice to be nice"?

I have always made the effort to help the mother struggling on the bus, the older person ALWAYS gets my seat and I hate to think that I have inconvenienced anyone. I would never assume I had a right....but I just wish that there was more of a kindness amongst each other. I suppose there is a general feeling that if you don't get it for yourself then nobody will get it for you. But it has turned into a selfish battle of "mine mine mine".
"it's my right"
Never mind what IS right at the time.

I suppose I understand in a very small way (not ever ever condoning what happened to the elderly couple, that was so very wrong) the rage that a mother had over the couple who parked in the space and left a note. The elderly folk around here constantly assume a superiority over everyone who is younger, which is fine as long as they aren't talking about me loudly in front of the whole bus queue about "how terrible it is that young lassies don't work these days". How my husband happens to have a weekday off ("must be unemployed") or if they aren't shaking their heads at me in the street. But at the same time it just shows up how exaggerated and pressurised motherhood can be - so easy to lose a grip on reality.

There's so much pressure. It's horrible horrible horrible awful

Gosh threelittleducks where on earth do you live every aspect of life there sounds horrendous!

Ha ha, yeah, we are moving soon. Very very soon. It's been really hard

I live in a small suburb in Scotland - it has the highest population of elderly folk in Europe!
And my HV says that 95% of mothers in her catchment are over the age of 35.

And most of them look right down their noses at me.
It's been fun.

But a major relief to be moving.

I think you all sound obnoxious in that example tsc.

I got on the bus recently and the space was already occupied for a pram so I knew I would have to fold mine. Hassle but not a disaster. Began removing bags from buggy as quickly as I could aware that bus was needing to move on. Realized DD was asleep and the my problems began, I got her out of the buggy but because she was asleep I didn't have a free hand to fold the buggy glanced around and amazingly everyone was looking at something fascinating out of the window!!! I laid my daughter on the floor of the bus, folded the buggy and picked her up. OK so far, so stressful but I'm determined to stay calm. I glance around and see that the bus is full and no one wants to offer DD or I a seat so I grab the handle ready to stand for the remainder of the journey whilst holding sleeping DD > At this point the bus driver leant out of his seat and BELLOWED "For pity's sake will someone let this woman sit!" Again there was something amazing to look at outside of the bus but eventually I was given a seat.
Sorry this is rambling but I have 3 points
1 I did not expect or demand a seat just because I had a child with me.
2 Surely if someone is struggling you help - young or old with baby or without.
And thirdly the people who tutted at me the loudest were all elderly! I hope I grow more tolerant as I get older not less and I wish we lived in a society where the only thing we demand is that people treat each other with respect.

The messages stereotyping and caricaturing 'the elderly' are really not helping the case against the idea of a 'culture of entitlement' are they?

They are old, they do have a right to a seat. They are an easy group to attack. So don't. It is ageist and it is stereotyping.

Be brave next time and go and ask a younger person if they would mind holding the baby or letting you have their seat. It isn't particularly endearing for you to moan about all the nasty old people.

Well, tsc, perhaps, given that many older people have mobility difficulties, sight and cognitive impairments and people treat them like shit in public places, they simply had their eyes on how to get off the bus in time before they continued being ignored and invisibilised by most of society.

Your assumptions about their motivations are problematic and if you don't want people to ignore your needs and stereotype you, then don't do it to others either...

Actually I wasn't moaning about nasty old people my post states that nobody on the bus was particularly helpful (young or old) ! Sadly I am stroppy cow loath to ask for help unless my limbs are falling off so maybe partly my fault! My point though is that we should all be more willing to step in and help and that there shouldnt be a culture of "expectation" but instead where people in general are respected and are always willing to help each other (Sorry does that sound a bit cheesy )

Surely anyone in need of help should have a reasonable expectation of it being offered whether old and doddery or dealing with small children. Very sad if its not the case. Tsc you do sound particularly unlucky with your experiences it does sound really upsetting and you have my sympathies.

To counteract the misery must say I have encountered many acts of small kindnesses whilst on public transport by all sorts of people. Lost count of the times in London when bumping a buggy up or down steps people who would barely look at me, or say anything, but would pick up the bottom of the buggy carry it down the steps without breaking their stride. The bus driver who got out of his seat to supervise and maneorve all the buggies to ensure everyone could get on the bus. The people that gave up their seats when I was on crutches with SPD, the old man that came up to me after a bus journey to say what a well behaved and lovely child dd was. Its not all bad out there...

YABU I think it is an excellent piece. Which twisted round could be written about various groups in society. Everyone seems to think they are "owed" by others.