to be getting a leeeetle bit hacked off with the postal strike...

[AtheneNoctua]

Today I have to take a 2 hour lunch to sort out a Halloween costume because I can't rely on the mail to deliver one if I order it online. That is 2 hours of my work which I will have to make up if I want to be paid for it.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8327158.stm

I selfishly hope they hire the contract workers.

What about the public who relies on this service? Where is our compensation?

I will add I don't know the details of the reasons for the strike (because they aren't reported and not because I haven't looked). So I don't have an opinion on whether the strike is justified.

But I am starting to feel they have made their bloody point and I want my mail service back.

TheDevilEatsBabies - "i know that the working conditions of the everyday and bullying and harrassment of the workers by the bosses is forefront to the argument."

As ImSoNotTelling has said already said, it certainly seems as though these problems are caused by the pensions deficit.

If you want them to improve, you have to swallow the closure of the final salary pension scheme. There is no other way around it.

I am astonished that CWU have organised a strike because they want both of these things.

Apart from that, as I said previously, we have no evidence(on this thread anyway)that any action was taken to persuade the company to agree that working conditions were becoming insupportable before strike action.

"I can't feel sad that people are striking to keep something, and insist that I (taxpayer) pay for it, when it is in modern terms an impossibly huge perk."

Absolutely agreed, ImSoNotTelling.

And it's no goood to now say "yes, but actually, we're striking about working conditions" when the solution to the working conditions is closure of the final salary pension scheme. You cannot possibly have both.

I regard the postal service as a public service (i.e. should be funded out of taxes) because over the last 150 years it has become the one guaranteed way that people can be contacted - I'm thinking not just Christmas cards or Boden catalogues, but gas bills, bank statements, doctors' letters reminding of appointments etc.

Of course there are other ways of contacting people, but not everyone (esp. older people) has access to email.

You may disagree with my concept of a service - this is my opinion, not a fact.

On profits, I believe RM has suffered because some more profitable parts of the business (e.g. Parcel Force) were privatised years ago.

On pensions, my understanding is that a few years ago the pension pot was thriving so the government (it IS the govt. ultimately - RM is nationalised, so no private shareholders involved) took a 'pension holiday', i.e. froze their contributions to pensions. Unfortunately, this 'pension holiday' lasted several years and coincided with a fall in stock market so that the pension pot is now very far from thriving.

This has obvious implications for RM workers who have been paying into pension schemes for many years in good faith, believing that their contributions were being matched by their employer (the govt., ultimately).

Again, this is my understanding of the situation, gleaned from media reports over the years; I can't quote you chapter and verse on sources, so I stand to be corrected.

On the late delivery/lack of Sunday collection/lack of second post Mon-Fri - these were decisions taken by RM management in the drive to be profitable, NOT in response to grumbles from the workforce.

there are a hell of a lot of things that taxpayers pay for that are less important than pensions (which incidentally your NI conrtibutions are suppsoed to ensure but that's been lost by the wayside too, hasn't it?)
like MPs' £140,000 basic salary and the management level of the NHS that means that staff can't do their jobs properly because it's surrounded by paperwork. like the same problems in the police and education.

but you stil lpay your taxes without complaining about that!
and i bet you'll vote the tories in because they've promised to squeeze every last bit of dignity out of us poor saps who pay their overinflated wages!

If the arguments are anything like those in other public sector jobs where pensions have become an issue, the main one will be:

The pension is part of the package signed up for. Eg: the wages are lower and the hours more unattractive than elsewhere, but the understanding is that you get a fantastic pension at the end of it.

Therefore some people will be feeling that they have kept their side of the bargin (worked for years on low-ish wages) and now when it comes to the company holding up their end of it by providing the decent pension, they say "ooops, sorry, we can't afford that now actually".

I think this is what you are driving at TheDevilEatsBabies? Apologies if I have misinterpreted.

I don't actually subscribe to this argument as they are protecting the final salary for existing memebers if I have understood correctly, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is the kind of thing being bandied around.

and! because RM is a government agency, it's noteven allowedto compete for the business that the other delivery companies are: they have to deliver the mail to the end customer and aren't even allowed a slice ofthe pie.

No I am a lifelong labour voter. I support the right to industrial action. I don't like privatisation. At all.

To paint anyone who questions whether RM demands are fair as a right-wing, capitalist pig who eats babies and wants grannies in the sheltands to be doomed to isolation is a pretty feeble argument.

To say "well your taxes are wasted in lots of ways so why not pay £££ for out of step pensions for these particular public sector workers" is also a silly argument. Surely everyone should be looking to reduce unnecessary/outdated expenses in all areas, not say well lots of money is wasted let's waste some more. Using that argument the MPs should have been able to keep their old expenses arrangements.

The private sector has been through this pensions thing, so has the NHS, councils etc etc. Why should postmen receive pensions in line with top execs and MPs? When no-one else does? And the cost is that it is knackering the very company itself?

In the private sector the message was simple. If final salary schemes remain, the companies will close. Obviously that does no-one any good.

What the postmen say is keep the final salary scheme open, the taxpayer can fund it. And we can't fold because we're the royal mail.

Can't you see why that is not a position which will attract support?

notanumber what normally happens first is that the final salary scheme closes to new members - I think this has already happened with RM.

The next step is normally to close the final salary scheme to existing. So if you had been there 10 years when it closed you would get 10 years of final salary pension and then the rest of your service on the new (not guaranteed) pension.

I don't buy the argument that public sector people are paid worse than private sector, either. At the top, yes. Middle and bottom, no.

PrincessFiorimonde - "On pensions, my understanding is that a few years ago the pension pot was thriving so the government (it IS the govt. ultimately - RM is nationalised, so no private shareholders involved) took a 'pension holiday', i.e. froze their contributions to pensions. Unfortunately, this 'pension holiday' lasted several years and coincided with a fall in stock market so that the pension pot is now very far from thriving.
This has obvious implications for RM workers who have been paying into pension schemes for many years in good faith, believing that their contributions were being matched by their employer (the govt., ultimately)."

But they are protecting the final salary pension of all emplyees currently enrolled on the scheme, I think? So no-one will lose the pension they signed up for. It is just that new employees won't be eligable and will be offered a stakeholder pension instead.

But regardless of whether the government are at fault by taking a payment holidy or not, this would have happened eventually; offering final salary pensions to all staff is unsustainable. The maths simply doesn't work.

However, in the face of this, from some simplistic attitude of 'you caused it now you pay it back' CWU want the deficit to be made up by the government and then continue with the final salary pension scheme in perpetuity?

And where do they want this 9 billion to come from? There's no magic money pot, it'll have to be taken from somewhere. The police force? Education? The NHS? I have to say that I think that these public services are more important than securing final salary pensions for RM workers, particularly when almost nobody has such a generous pension anymore and it is the most enormous perk.

but why should the NHS and other public sectors lose their rights to a pension?
i don't agree with that either.
i'm not saying i support only the posties on pensions.

i believe that every single person in the country should get a pension, in the same way i believe that every person should get equal healthcare rights. the government should guarantee that to people before paying their own wages etc.

and anyone who has paid into an extra pension fund (be it private or public) then they should be allowed to get a decent return on it.

but my argument isn't about the pension.
i see the pension as a tributory issue.
it's the working conditiosn that i've concentrated on, because that's what affects the people doing the job and it's what affects the customers.

it's like a big pile of straw on a camel's back, and every problem has added its weight.
(maybe i should use it's a big bag full of post that apparently doesn't exist and every imaginery letter has added its weight...)

notanumber I suspect that they do want to close it for existing members as well (although like with everything else I am having to guess at this) but this is perfectly normal (if about 5-10 years after it happened to everyone else) and that is what they are upset about.

It's just not sustainable. I can't believe that the RM can't see that. And that it sounds so bad. All the taxpayers on their shitty pensions handing over their cash so that RM employees can retire on fansastic pensions? Welcome to the real world. I'm sorry, while I understand why they are upset, I can't see any justification for continuing these pensions, I really can't.

The tax bill if all public sector workers were on final salary would be horrific. It would cripple the country.

Non guaranteed pensions (ie not final salary) are invested in the stock market. Many people have lost a lot of their pensions due to the recession and it's effect on the stock market. You think the govt should step in and bolster those too?

I think that to say pensions are not the main thing is wrong. I suspect that all the problems stem from it.

Ah, thank you ImSoNotTelling. Understood.

TheDevilEatsBabies - "i believe that every single person in the country should get a pension"

And they will be. Just not a ridiculous and unsustainable final slary one.

We get almost only junk mail now as in London the post has been disrupted for months, so has finally pushed us to get billing/statements etc on line and many of the items we used to post re booking kids on things we now scan and email instead. Presume this is being sdone in countless houses, so volumes reducing. Having junk mail delayed is no issue to us, and when he is working the postie kindly deposits in in the recycling bin next to the front door - win win, as he fulfils his duty in delivering it, and we don't get bothered by it. I sort thru it the night before the recycling collection to take out any pre-paid envelopes inside and send them back empty to make the sorting effort worthhile .
So much is done online now, the postal service will eventually dwindle anyway - strike action just hastening its demise.

notanumber - no, I think even postal workers who have paid into the pension scheme over many years have also seen their possible pensions frozen, in the same way as newcomers to the scheme have.

Again, I stand to be corrected on this.

I agree that there is a real problem as to where the money to make up the pension deficit will come from.

On the other hand, we suddenly managed to produce billions of pounds to bail out the banks - I'm not saying that was wrong, but where DID that money come from?

thedevileats babies - have sympathy with your views, but think basic MP's salary is about £65k, not £140k.

I heard that the Royal Mail absolutely love it when people send back empty junkmail envelopes because they get paid for handling them (sending them back)!

Before anyone says how come everyone used to get final salary pensions and now they don't, the answer is that people are living much longer than they used to. That is what has changed and why these type of pensions can't work any more.

I also think that if it is true that the pensions are a minor side issue, then maybe RM should agree to the closure of final salary scheme and they might get a lot more support with the other issues. This one overshadows everything else for a lot of people. It seems like the RM are oblivious to the fact that they are asking people on shitty pensions to fund their excellent ones, and can't understand why people would not be dead keen on the idea.

princess: oops thank you for the info! (i think i was confusing it with the allowances added on.)

you have great stamina on this thread devil i'm long done with it. i find it way too depressing. wondering if some are journalists too.

why thank you southeastastra.

i'm my father's daughter: i will argue my point until everyone gives up and agrees with me

(that was a joke, i really don't want everyone to suddenly agree with me)

(it's only because i'm bored at work: everytime i've done something i come back to it - and no, i'm not being paid to do nothing! (one of the joys of being self-employed i guess. can't wait till i've taken enough to pay myself...)

I'm not a journalist, by the way, southeastastra, but if you're suggesting that the only way that journalists can get any information at all about the strike is by coming onto a parenting forum and discussing it for days....Well...

I'd suggest that this says rather more about how efficient the CWU are in informing their members and the public of their position than it does about journalistic investigative methods.

i think notanumber, it says more about questioning procedure, not necessarily from a journo's POV.
i asked questions and understood (misunderstood sometimes ) answers.
found out for myself.

some people on this board seem to be asking the same questions over and over again without trying to find out themselves.

i'm not google.

oh stop being so patrionising notanumber

happily the public round here seem to be on the posties side.

oh god, that looks way more bitchy than i intended it to.
sorry.