to think that people claiming that BNP voters aren't racists are being disingenuous?

[MrJustAbout]

I don't get the argument "that these people aren't racist, but they vote just BNP".

For me, If you vote BNP, you are a racist. I know this is guilt by association but I think it's fair. What's more, making excuses for those who choose to support these hatemongers makes it more acceptable for them to do so.

I know I wouldn't vote for a party when I didn't know their policies and if I did, I'd feel pretty ashamed that I voted without bothering to find out. To be honest, anyone who votes for the BNP and claims that didn't realise they'd just cosied up to facists needs to give up voting for good.

YANBU

Of course they are racist and of course they are being disingenuous, but they are also deluded.

They only see what they want to see, they cannot explain themselves and that is because their 'views' are borne out of the basest prejudices of humanity.

also i don't think the people who vote BNP are protesting I think they're voting on one issue that they hold important and that they feel/see isn't being addressed by the mainstream parties. Just as a conservative voter votes on issues of tax and a lib dem voter votes on the issue of Iraq.
It is scary that the BNP is seen as an option for people who are scared by immigration. I'm a lot more scared by the prospect of a BNP MP.

I don't know what the solution is to the complex range of problems there are among the underclass but it isn't the BNP.

Clearly the mainstream political parties aren't engaging them, and possibly don't care about there votes?

Riven, just because the British skip over and do not integrate in countries where migration is not so huge it does not mean a system couldn't be a vital component in a successful immigration policy.

Bobbing - not being on that list does not mean someone is not a BNP supporter, it just means they're not a member of that party. I don't think the majority of the population are actually members of any political party, but that doesn't mean they don't support what a party says and will vote for them in an election.

A major issue is ignorance around immigration. Did you know that the largest groups of immigrants in the 1980s were from America, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand? However, most people do think of immigrants as being not-white, uneducated and here to claim benefit. I actually LOLed when I read an article in the DM moaning about the rise of the BNP, saying that the BNP had gained ground "due to concerns raised in the mainstream press about immigration". You mean, the DM bleating on and on and on about immigrants and how evil they are?

I don't think all racists are stupid. Sadly, there are some people who are terribly intelligent who manage to convince themselves of their own superiority.

Absolutely salvadory.

In my area voters have been badly let down by both mainstream political parties. Whole families, 3 generations sometimes, put out of work by Thatcher when the pits closed, other manufacturing industry wiped out under Labour. They feel cast aside. Whilst I do not agree with the way they are voting; it will continue whilst they feel they are being listened to by the BNP and ignored by the rest. They are deluded, yes, but I have a feeling that locally at least, in the depths of recession, there will be more votes for the BNP. The mainstream parties need to sit up and take notice and not just dismiss them as racist or ignorant. That won't change anybody's view or the way they vote.

In my opinion, many BNP voters are protest voters. Not saying that none of them are racist, but I think that they are looking for an answer to the immigration "problem" and none of the mainstream political parties are offering one.

Going by last night's QT, Labour waffled on but insisted that there was no problem, Tories realise there is a problem but have no clear solution and the BNP are the only ones who have found the answer (in their opinion).

We had a similar situation in Germany in the last 10 or 15 years, with the rise of the Reps and the NPD. The protest voters have since swapped allegiance and now vote for the far left Die Linke (what used to be the PSD, the successor of the East German ruling communist party).

DH has a friend who voted for the far right Republikaner at the last election and Die Linke at the most recent election. Purely based on their populistic "easy" solutions to difficult problems.

Why is it racist to put a cap in immigration? The country has limited resources, limited money and limited space. Seems to me the same people who think we should leave our borders open also would protest against building on greenbelt or an over stretched NHS, worrying that there aren't enough midwives to assist a homebirth.

Can British migrants walk into a drs or hospital and get treatment free?

yanbu

I am however not so concerned about the BNP getting into parliament. If they follow their German and Austrian counterparts they will soon show themselves to be utterly useless at governing.

They are all mouth and no trousers.

Most people voting BNP are not (especially) racist. Nor are they at heart particularly bothered about immigration per se. They are bothered about their perceived opporunities and living standards going down. Immigration is just a convenient hook to hang this off.
The problem is the collapse of opportunity and aspiration amongst the working class, particualarly in ceratin areas, especially if they formerly relaied on manufacturing.
The BNP are the only party offering them (false) hope. The other parties offer them nothing becaused there is nothing to offer them. They are fucked.
There was a town near Hull that was formerly a pit and potteries town. If they got an honest answer form a ploiticain of what they were going to do for them it would be "Nothing. There is no work here so your community is no longer viable. You will see it increasingly deteriorate and finally exaporate over a period of decades as people move to where the work is. The benefit system will make this worse, as it will slow this process, but as the alternative is people starving we are stuck with it. Move."
But this isn't exactly a vote winning position.

Riven
you asked about other European countries. I can only speak for Germany and Switzerland but the same concerns are shared here.

I find Switzerland to be more overtly racist than Germany, tbh. I have NEVER been stopped by the police or the border controls but have often seen black people stopped adn their papers checked.

The largest source of population growth in the UK is natural growth (that is, babies being born).

There's an interesting article in the Economist about Britain's white poor.
"White discontent is a puzzle, because white Britons are much better off than others. About a fifth of white children are classified as poor; the figure runs from a quarter among Caribbeans and Indians to more than half among Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. Whites earn more than others and employment rates are higher. And they still benefit from discrimination: job applications from people with African- or Asian-sounding names are turned down more often than English-sounding ones, according to a survey published this week."
But then, people often don't let little things called "facts" get in the way of their prejudice.

Oh, and the definition of "poor" is not based on a objective set of criteria, but is subjective (as in, a certain percentage of the population will always be classified as "poor" in relation to an opposing percentage of the population).

There seems to be an assumption that the UK borders are open to everyone. That anyone can rock up at Heathrow and apply to come in and work. That all immigrants are immediately eligible for benefits etc

As an immigrant myself I can assure you that is not the case.

For non EU residents, there is a points system of sorts, and a pretty unachievable one at that unless you are sponsered by a company (as I was).

But... I am as white as they get. Go back a few generations and all my ancestors are British... so I guess I am probably not one of the immigrants the BNP is concerned about.

FB I know that, but no members at all in an area does reflect something I think- when combined with % votes cast as well.

PP- it is nto racist to debate immigration because of space or resources. It is racist to argue that we need caps to protect diluting of the indigenous gene pool (?? no understanding there of genetics methinks), because of black people, risks from Islam etc etc etc.

Bleh- yep the difference between relative and absolute poverty. However, if you have no opportunities to change your life (or feel you do not), constantly have less than other people you feel you equal in contribution, and were raised believing that this cannot change you will feel poor and marginalised. Not always- I was raised in those circumstances but have the benefit of parents who valued social mobility, education and believed in our ability to move on from there- but very very often.

It's not even about what you have half the time- it's about what you feel others think of you. When we demonise hoodies (as in the generic term rather than specifically criminals), single parents, claimants, council house dwellers or chavs, we don't just criticise the people we intend to but we lump them all into one group, the majority of which will be ill deserving of any criticism at all and then will feel marginalised not on the basis of what tehy have done, or contribute, but who they identify with as a community.

MrJustAbout YANBU. NG is a complete moron, as he showed so ably last night, so surely only complete morons (or racists) could buy what he's selling.

Flamingo I was puzzled by what is wrong with Afro-Caribean as well - sorry if I've missed something, but has anyone been able to answer that?

I know that realistically we will need to have some cap on immigration given that we are a small island / have limited resources etc - but as my family all started off elsewhere I can see the economic contribution my grandparents and other relatives made in the past by doing those jobs that the locals didn't want to do. Also, they came from one of many countries from the former Empire - and I still can't get my head around how it is ok that the British were allowed to take what they wanted from around the world, try to make their new "subjects" feel British, and then either not let them come here, or not make them feel welcome.

My lot are all Irish, BTW - and I was surprised to hear NG say we are part of the indigenous (sp?) population because none of them were made very welcome from the 1920s to 1970s.

I understand that the white working class has had a very bad deal over the last 40 years or so - anyone on the left understands that. That doesn't mean that voting BNP is anything other than vicious ignorance or racism.

The mainstream parties are struggling with the immigration question because none of them are prepared to outline the real problem with public services and resources in this country: the fact that the electorate simply will not countenance any rises in income tax. All the major parties have cravenly accepted this line. If you rule out tax increases, you're left with scarce resources and people in need going without, and then those people start looking for scapegoats.

To those who have spoken about maternity services being under pressure because of immigrants - the Royal College of Midwives have flatly denied this.

You can frame the problem as not enough resources. Or you can frame it as too many immigrants. If you choose the latter, you are, at best, a xenophobe.

Oh yes, and on the Afro-Caribbean thing - I think that woman just didn't know what she was talking about.

Alana MG didn't sem very clear on what the indigenous pop was tbh- at the end he was slipping towards English.My guess was that he wanted to appeal to anyone with a vote who might include themselves 9the constitution after all says self defining indigenous caucasian IIRC), but what he means is English so when the guard slipped at the end he reverted to the truth.

Although if with your guard up you can state there is a genocide occurring here, describe the KKK as mainly non violent, deny at the very least much of the holocaust and refer to visible homosexuality as creepy then tbh tehre isn't much left to expose.

Was she bothered because Cfro-Caribbean is more about those taken from Africa and put in the Caribbean as opposed to Africans who came directly from Africa?

Maybe she just wanted a term that wasn't based upon slavery and atrocity?

not sure, wish we did know though, there was so much alst night that was left unsaid- oculd have watched it for hours.

I thought the term Afro-carribean was just the same grammatical construct as Franco-Belgian or Anglo-Indian etc. Nothing derogatory, just that's how its done. (no idea why!)

But Grimma's right, it's just a prefix. It accurately describes the heritage of black Britons who came from Africa to the UK via the Caribbean. There's no difference that I can see between 'African Caribbean' (which was what she said should be used) and Afro-Caribbean, except that the latter is easier to say!