to think that people claiming that BNP voters aren't racists are being disingenuous?

[MrJustAbout]

I don't get the argument "that these people aren't racist, but they vote just BNP".

For me, If you vote BNP, you are a racist. I know this is guilt by association but I think it's fair. What's more, making excuses for those who choose to support these hatemongers makes it more acceptable for them to do so.

I know I wouldn't vote for a party when I didn't know their policies and if I did, I'd feel pretty ashamed that I voted without bothering to find out. To be honest, anyone who votes for the BNP and claims that didn't realise they'd just cosied up to facists needs to give up voting for good.

I honestly don't know Flamingo but threatening phone calls are not the way forward. He lives with his young son and the calls could be the step before people going to his house.

In certain countries people do not turn up to vote or vote for something other than what they believe as they have been scared into it. That can't be the way forward here surely?

Yup - it's a members list. So, girlsyearapart, how does your friend justify that then?

I have to say that I would not stay a friend of a member of the BNP and I would be very shocked at my lack of judgement of character that I would have developed a friendship with such disgusting views.

I have to admit I haven't watched the program, Im planning on watching it later, and its quiet early so Ive only half read this thread

but I agree with Riven, when people talk about "the problems of mass immigration", they dont really mean immigration, they mean black, non English speaking people and tend to completely forget about immigrants from America, Australia and such like.

I used to work in a bar when I was younger and have had this conversation many many times with customers some of them bnp supporters, and another problem I found was a shockingly high proportion of them didnt understand the difference between immigration and illegal immigration, and imagined all immigrants came over in the back of a lorry and now lead the high life getting more benefits than a British person would ever be entitled to being given the best houses and a mobile phone

I had to laugh at someone I knew at school who is now my friend on facebook, he joined a group called "British jobs for British people". My first thought was what about the 6 years you spent living and working in Spain?

Booing, we're still in recession - it sucks, but it's going to happen. Tell him to stick with it - it takes longer to find a job when times are tough, and 30 applications without an interview probably isn't uncommon.

He's not my friend just someone who lives near us who went to school with DH. Dh's cousin is the mother of his son (not together now).

I haven't talked to him about BNP voting only when DH told me he had been threatened.I only ever chat to him in passing about how his son is etc.

I would worry about the boy first before anything else.

I didnt say there was a specific policy to offer the Polish jobs first,i am merely stating what id happening round here.

And i know its true as my friend is the HR lady in one of the food factories.

When i left my job to have my ds my boss employed 2 polish girls to do my job & i have to say they were lovely.One of them said both her & her husband had come over here & she worked days & he worked nights,they were saving all their money to go back to Poland in 3 yrs time to build their own home with their earnings.

This whole "the Poles get the jobs first" thing is a complete myth. If white British men were willing to do the same work, for the same money, of course they would be employed!

I used to recruit for labourers/industrial staff and had so many white British men come in and ask me for business cards so they could continue claiming benefits as "jobseekers" but were completely unwilling to do any of the jobs I offered them. I know that this is just my anecdotal experience but I have seen this in different places happening time and time again.

MrJustAbout - thanks,i have told him to stick with it & hopefully something will turn up for him.I just feel sorry for him as he has no money at all.But at least he has no family to keep & a mortgage to pay like a lot of others at the moment struggling.

A lot of BNP voters may genuinely think they are not racist. But I don't accept you could vote for them unless fundamentally you believe you are more entitled than some other group of people simply because of your race.

Its what you do what matters, not what you say you believe.

Its like Jan Moir claiming not to be homophobic.

perhaps a lot of british men can't afford to work for the crap wages the polish men can.....
of course it is so easy just to slag the white british man off, he can't say anything back, or he will be called a racist.

As far as I know 2shoes Polish people don't get cheaper food shopping, rent, transport costs etc. Minimum wage is either a liveable wage or not (a whole other debate!), there is no reason why man from country A can live on it when man from country B says he can't. It's just rubbish.

And if they can't afford to work for crap wages then maybe they need to up-skill? These are the options when it comes to getting a job and they are the options for EVERYONE. I find the concept of "foreign workers stealing all our jobs" utterly ridiculous. As if any company would have a policy to hire Polish workers over British ones (unless they needed Polish speakers of course!).

I don't know, but I also suspect that Brits have access to some benefits that Poles don't (especially at minimum wage). If it's unaffordable to live for white British men, it's got to be worse for the Poles, doesn't it?

Who is slagging off white british men, 2shoes. The tone of your posts worries me.

'he can't say anything back, or he will be called a racist.' - what's that about?

Of course he'll be called a racist if he says innaccurate or offensive things.

The BNP is appealing to a larger number of the population (who would be classed as the underclass by the vast majority of people on mumsnet beacuse they neither have the education nor the opportunities to be able to vocalise their opinions succintly on forums such at last night's qT or on here) because these people are living in close proximity to communities 'different' from their own be it Polish/ Bangladeshi/ African.
Middle class people tend to only view immigration theoretically, it doesn't affect their jobs, the African/Asian/Polish people they meet are professional (co-workers/ service providers and not competing with them in any way (for housing/benefits)therefore not a threat and nothing to resent.
I abhor the BNP, as a child of immigrants to this country it terrifies me what lies beneath the very thin veneer of lies that Nick Griffin has pasted over his racist agenda, however I am in a good position, I have a good education a professional job, I don't require council housing or state support and if I did I have enough knowledge not to blame shortages on the last wave of new people to come into the country.
Bashing the underclass as stupid or ignorant is not facing what real issues these people have and understanding what pressures make them resent the 'other' and therefore vote BNP.
It's all well to say to the local unemployed white male go and get the job that the hard working Pole is prepared to do but that is coming from your background which values and understands the benefits of working for a living. The solution to the problem of the indigenous underclass is complex but needs to be addressed as just labelling 'it' stupid doesn't solve anything.

You know what - in construction there are lots of polish workers and wages are low. But is that the fault of the workers? When agencies only pay minimum wage and people with families can't live on that whose fault is it?

DH did a bit of labouring in the past. He said most of the polish workers had good reputations for working hard and always turning up. He also had that sort of rep whereas the white english guys he chatted to were far more likely to not turn up, or sneak off for a spliff in the lunch break, or walk out. (although obviously there were plenty who worked hard). DH is also an immigrant BTW.

TBH I think immigration from eastern europe will balance out. There was a massive influx of poles but it's waning as a lot go back and fewer come. The recession has heightened feelings as there is now a perception that we can't afford to have immigrants (although we do need immigration to boost the economy)

As we get poorer and other countries get richer people will want to come here less, and as we get richer again more people will come.That's the way it goes.

Then of course you have asylum seekers who, if it was up to me, would all be allowed in and migrants for other reasons like my DH who was married to me, which obviously can't be restricted, providing they fulfil all the criteria.

I suppose that by definition the Poles who have bothered to come here are the types to 'get on their bikes' and seek opportunity. There are probably plenty of feckless Poles left in Poland.
Similarly there are plenty of British people who have gone to other countries (or moved internally) because they can do better there in whatever field they work.

Its not down to race but to attitude. No idea what the solution is but it isn't blanket bans on immigration.

salvadory,

I agree - but the problem with voting BNP is that it doesn't deal with the complexities of the situation and it doesn't actually help. It worries me that voting BNP is treated as a socially acceptable way of protesting, when they're nothing like socially acceptable.

Let's deal with the complexities of the situation rather than make it easier to choose an unacceptable simple solution.

My point in the original post wasn't to suggest that there aren't issues but more to say that there are limits. If you vote BNP you're either racist, or you're ignorant of what they are. Personally, I don't see that there is a third option.

I think salvadory talks some sense. In my area there are 9 (yes NINE) BNP councillors; that's the same number as the Conservatives. They represent exactly the type of people she talks about in her post. Whether you think the views of these people are right, wrong or ignorant; they are strong views, they feel they are not listened to by the mainstream parties and they are getting out there and voting. It's a tad scary, I do not want a local council run by the BNP.

mr justabout, i'm so pregnant at the moment that by the time I'd read the thread the original point was totally forgotten!
I agree that people who vote BNP are in the main ignorant but they're also at the hard face and being so close to a 'problem' makes it less easy to see or appreciate the complexities of a situation.
BNP supporters want a simple solution, i.e they want the foreigner to go away beacuse they think (incorrectly) it will make their lives easier. However as I said earlier it's easier to see this from a point of privelege, which i think most people on here today and on last nights QT are sitting.
ps loads and loads of voters vote for the mainstream parties without knowing their policies, it's one of the downsides of universal democracy which i for one wouldn't like to see changed to 'only intelligent policy reading people can vote'. It's down to the other parties and the media to present the unpalatable side of the BNP so disaffected, under educated people realise what they are signing up to when they put a tick in the vote BNP box. Hopefully now it will be taken more seriously thanin the past.

Yep Grimma,friends of ours gone to East Europe to set up a sbusiness running speedboat trips, many ohers gomne to France or Spain (parents of childhood friends mainly) to retire which is probably harder on accepting country than taking working and willing people in all truth.

Have to say PP'slist did reassure me as a friend is hinting she votes BNP; no idea what i'd have done there,oldest friend I ahve and I love her desrly but there are limits and I think that would be it.

If you vote BNP you are preapred to vote in a aprty comprised of people who are racist, ergo you are a racist becuase you are happy to discriminate against people on rac. Whether you do that through conscious thought or are simply dim enough to make it a protest vote, you are a racist, or technically I suppose a racism enabler which si surely the same?.

Chuck in homophobic too for good measure please. they creep people out? if that was a criteris of public appearance Mr G, you'd be shut away for starters!

The list PP gave is interesting its iwdely thought that provincialpoverty promotes the BNP yet seemingly nobody on the rural deprivation index scoring estate my parents live on is a member. Intriguing.

If someone could enlighten me as to why NG was applaudung at laughing at things that made him look a pillock bte i'd be interested...