to think that people claiming that BNP voters aren't racists are being disingenuous?

[MrJustAbout]

I don't get the argument "that these people aren't racist, but they vote just BNP".

For me, If you vote BNP, you are a racist. I know this is guilt by association but I think it's fair. What's more, making excuses for those who choose to support these hatemongers makes it more acceptable for them to do so.

I know I wouldn't vote for a party when I didn't know their policies and if I did, I'd feel pretty ashamed that I voted without bothering to find out. To be honest, anyone who votes for the BNP and claims that didn't realise they'd just cosied up to facists needs to give up voting for good.

Yes at the time it was evident that TB was getting more support from the opposition than from his own party.

Harpy if you follow the link you will see that most of the conservative party voted for the Irag War. No two ways about it.
Sorry I do not mean to take this debate off topic. www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2003-03-18&number=118c.

"if you follow the link you will see that most of the conservative party voted for the Irag War"

yes, based on false evidence, cooked up by Tony's "dodgy dossier".

TSH - I have to address your suggestion that people who vote for the BNP are unaware of their racist position - of course they are - it is notorious. I have trouble understanding why anyone would find the BNP credible. The explanation of their policies on the website reads like a Sun newspaper article - they are beyond ridiculous and it is quite easy to read between the lines of what they suggest - that violence is the solution to problems.

"The explanation of their policies on the website reads like a Sun newspaper article"

That's exactly why the BNP are gaining in popularity, IMO - to a large section of the community (Sun readers), the BNP seems to speak "their" language.

Whilst you may "read between the lines" that violence is suggested, what many may see is the veneer of respectability that came along with the ditching of skinheads and bovver boots.

Many BNP voters do not see themseves as racists - you may argue that they are racists by virtue of the very fact that they are BNP voters - but they nevertheless do not see themselves that way.

Yes, I see what you mean scarletlilybug - but I have come across people saying they would consider voting BNP who haven't even read their policies.

Many racists don't see themselves as racist either - isn't that the problem? I would argue that BNP supporters are fascists because they believe they are of a superior race...

I'm not sure that fascism is necessarily the same thing as racism. It tends to be more about nationalism. For example, Mussolini only got interested in race when he allied Italy with the Nazis. Franco and Pinovchet were both fascists - but I'm not sure that racism weas the most striking aspect of their regimes.

But what does it matter? It's all hideous and it all leads us backwards and threatens to take away our way of life as we know it. If people don't consider themselves racist that doesn't mean they are not. From where I sit, BNP policies look racist to me and BNP supporters talk endlessly of 'white european'. They are certainly trying to keep a lid on it currently but not very well imo.

lot's of people don't consider themselves racist when they clearly are. Take my workmate for example who starts every racist comment whit 'I am not racist but...'

Indeed, duellingfango. Didn't one of the panel members on QT also point out that the BNP keep saying 'we are not a racist organisation' and that that in itself shows they are because no other party needs to promote that idea.

thing is electra, no matter what people think about the BNP...6% of people in this country voted for them...now i don't know how many people live in this country..will take a guess at 50 million.? 6% of 50 million is quite alot of people ...

i know we're at opposing ends of the political spectrum, but i'ts been interesting talking to you...and i think you'll agree it's a good a thing that we can talk about it...

I didn't bring up fascism.... I just don't agree that,as a term, it is interchangeable with racism. Neither are desirable.

I still think that the best defence against racism is reason. That's why I don't think it's helpful to simply dismiss people who vote BNP as "racists". If people who do not consider themselves racist vote BNP, then they must have some reason to justify this in their own minds. If people have concerns about immigration and multi-culturalism, surely they should be free to discuss these concerns rationally and without fear of being branded a racist? From what I can see, the refusal of all the main parties to discuss these issues is a major reason for the recent rise in popularity of the BNP. I can't see how continuing in this vein is going to change things.

exactly scarlet..

I agree that people should be free to discuss their concerns about immigration and it's effects. I don't, however, see how that equates to voting for the BNP. Imo these voters are either stupid or racist - or both.

DP 6% of the country voted BNP or 6% of voters? Surely it was the latter. Significant difference.

ok LL 6% of people who could be bothered to vote....do you know how many people that was..?

6% will still be a high proportion of people..

DP of course it is still a lot of people but nowhere near as much as 6% of the population. That would be frightening. I don't have the figure to hand, but I have no doubt that there are many stupid/racist people in this county. Indeed I encounter them on a regular basis.

6% of voters at the European election voted BNP - not of the whole electorate. Just under a million voters. Whether this will translate into more or less support at the general election remains to be seen. TBH, when it comes to elections, it is only the actual votes which count - doesn't matter what party or policies the non-voters support if they can't be arsed to get off their backsides and actually make a cross on a ballot paper.

To add....we also have an ever dwindling turn out for elections - so that further puts the 6% in context.

but how do you know those people vote BNP...?they could vote Labour...

Scarlet lily - yes I see what you are saying, but I was trying to point out that it is not 6% of the country who support the BNP. Ideally people would get off their arses and vote to that effect but I imagine they are so disillusioned with the choice that they don't bother.

yes it does put it into context....it means they felt strongly enough about something to go out and vote....while the rest of the country stayed at home watching the telly...

Or they may not vote at all...........just pointing out that I am not surprised by the percentage.

I won't defend people who are too apathetic to vote but you'll be waiting a long time if you think I'll give a BNP voter credit for turning up and voting for a facist, sexist, plain nasty party.

94% of other voters got off their sofas and voted for other parties.

Percentages always look different quoted the other way round.

Not that this is a cause for complacency but statistics have to be viewed correctly.