to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

I'm just glad we have the choice here about whether or not to change names on marriage. Not everyone is so lucky, eg in Japan it is legally compulsory for married couples to share a surname. It doesn't have to be the husband's, but 99 per cent of the time it is, unless, for example, the husband is joining the wife's family's company.

Most women go along with it, but I have friends with established careers who have had a "wedding ceremony" without a legal marriage so they don't have to change their names. This can cause problems later on if they have children, the relationship breaks up or whatever. At least here you can opt for the legal protection of marriage without having to take on all the traditional trappings.

But then again, in Japan there is no distinction between Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms - you're all just -san.

I guess you win some, you lose some...

But ABetaDad while we are bitching at each other over trivialities we are not causing any problems are we? Feminism seems to have changed to mean not so much wanting equality but wanting other women to all want the same thing.

abetadad
I think some men need to think about the wider issues at play here and stop denigrating women for giving thought and attention to an issue that affects women and is bound up with the historical and continued oppression of women.

Answer honestly - would you have felt comfortable changing your surname to DW's?

It makes gawd knows how many years at university and being poor FOR EVER AND EVER AND EVER AFTER worthwhile to be able to say 'dr actually' when asked the same and somewhat irritating question. rather a drastic solution to the problem, but there has to be something good about getting a phd!

fwiw, i did change my name when i married dh - am a smith and found acquiring dh's hard-to-spell-if-you're-a-numpty name really annoying. and it just didn't sound like me, so i switched back. if somebody now calls me 'mrs dh' i know they are either a) cold-calling or b) dim.

Morloth - well I feel perfectly happy that some women do not want to change their name. I would never judge, critise or think ill of any woman who wants that. That is their free choice, but this is where I get of the bus:

"Feminism seems to have changed to mean not so much wanting equality but wanting other women to all want the same thing."

Yes I do think it has moved away from fighting for equality to something that feels a lot more like bullying and judging other women.

I think we are agreeing?

kat2907 - I was equally happy for DW to change her name to mine, happy to double barrel, happy to keep her name. I never asked or exprssed an opinion. It was what she wanted and it felt a little bit strange at first when she said "Mrs ABetaDad" but I felt honoured and proud too.

I would not have changed my name to hers because it is simply not the norm. That would have been my free choice not to as it was a free choice for DW to want to change her name to mne. It is about free choice not being bullied and judged - and especially not by other women.

ABetaDad Do you understand that you are speaking from a position of privilege here? Presumably you are male? This isn't a free decision that you personally have to confront the ramifications of. I'd just like to know if you get that?

I have one question for you and I'm not saying I think your wife made an uninformed choice. I'm sure that her decision was very well thought out and personally speaking quite right but in changing her name she failed to show solidarity to feminist ideology so why wouldn't a feminist judge her, particularly if she did make a 'free choice'? She made an intelligent decision to choose her own desire rather than a broader one for a society of women. I don't support the idea that she's a little woman but it's quite frustrating to feel passionate about such a thing and note people's disinterest in those kind of things.

"I would not have changed my name to hers because it is simply not the norm. That would have been my free choice not to as it was a free choice for DW to want to change her name to mne. "

And as to that, it shows the privilege of being male really, doesn't it?

"I think some men need to think about the wider issues at play here and stop denigrating women for giving thought and attention to an issue that affects women and is bound up with the historical and continued oppression of women."

Get over yourself, kat2907. ABetaDad wasn't having a go at women who "give thought and attention to this issue". He was talking about the freedom to choose and the judging on this thread (and in the wider world) of women who do take their DH's name as being little wifeys.

You may think that this is bound up with the historical and continued oppression of women but others don't. It is quite possible to be a feminist and take your DH's name. Just because some women don't want to take their DH's names (for understandable reasons) doesn't mean that a woman who doesn't is backwards. Focus on the real issues.

Nina - I am not sure that I can support the suggestion that a woman choosing to take her DH name is "failing to show soldiarity to feminist ideology" and that therefore a feminist has the right to judge her. To my mind, the beauty of feminism is that it gives both men and women choices that simply did not exist before. Women can keep their names. Men can be the main carer at home. Women can earn more than men. Men get to choose to be nurses if they want to.

The problem is that many people don't realise these are choices and therefore make assumptions about what they can and can't do and/or then apply those assumptions to other people.

I kept my name. I remain Ms. But I don't assume that a woman who is married therefore subscribes to a view of womenhood (if I can call it that) that is necessarily opposed to mine.

I'm not married. When I divorced I changed my name back to my maiden name and later DD took my maiden name. Now that I'm past a certain age I'm referred to as Mrs eve when I've never been married to a Mr eve. It really irritates me. I prefer Ms. School kept addressing my as Mrs so I made sure it was underlined on my details that I am Ms and they corrected it.

stillstanding "It is quite possible to be a feminist and take your DH's name."

What's you response to the argument that when you become a Mrs you ally yourself with marking women's marital status and that's when women become property.

I took my husband's name because I wanted to. I didn't feel pressured, or patronised. I (shock, horror) actually LIKE being Mrs. ChickenshavenolipsDH'sname. Similairly, my eldest son was born before we were married, and I gave him DH's surname. I love DH, and it was a sign of that love (also, I chose the DC's first names, so seemed only fair! )

What a charmed life some people must lead that they have nothing to worry about except something as pointless as this!
Kat2907 - if your maiden name is shared with your father, as opposed to it being his name, would you not consider that you could then share our husband's name when you get married, and have your DCs share that name too, thus creating your own family unit and tradition?

Ah yes - male privilege - 'It doesn't affect me so it's no big deal really, can't understand what you are all whinging about'...

I changed my name by deed poll to DPs surname. I use the title Ms. We all wanted the same surname, just as a symbol that we are a family unit, we did give serious consideration to using my original surname or even a completely new name, but in the end we thought we might as well take the easier route and go with DPs name. When I changed my name, I actually saw it as more changing to have the same name as DD than DP.

Keeping my own name wouldn't have exactly been feminist - all I would have been saying, in effect, was that I still belonged to my Dad, rather than my DP.

We did consider things like my mothers original surname, but again, that is just my Grandad's name really.

I always put DDs name as Miss, as she is 2 and definitely a child, but I will encourage her to start using Ms when she feels she would like to be considered as an adult (I'm thinking around the age of 16 or 18, but it is her choice)

What is far more annoying is this tendency by some of my friends to insist they are "girls" and not women. These are sexually active adults who have jobs and houses and, in some cases, children. To me, a girl doesn't generally have these things. It seems creepy to me.

What is this position of privilege? A man gets to choose if he wants to change his name, a woman gets to choose if she wants to change her name. Traditionally it may have been women who usually changes their names but in today's society everyone gets to choose. No privilege.

As to ninagleam's rhetoric re women who change their name "failing to show solidarity to feminist ideology so why wouldn't a feminist judge her" and "choosing her own desire rather than a broader one for a society of women" ... well, it's hard to know where to start (or where to stop ROFL).

From what ABetaDad has said about his wife it is clear that she does not show disinterest in "those kind of things" - she just came to a different conclusion to yours.

But BlingLoving this isn't the world we're living in: "Women can keep their names. Men can be the main carer at home. Women can earn more than men. Men get to choose to be nurses if they want to."

Proportionally those things are unlikely. I like all of my friends who married and changed their names but ideologically I think their choices are problematic. It's not a dislike of individuals nor a moral argument but you can't separate action from society and those choices aren't equal. Women can't choose to be offered equal pay in equal work, men can't choose to receive SMP after their babies are born (rather than the mother), women can keep their names but most don't and even with all the will in the world that's not a choice that's removed from your context.

I actually found it incredibly empowering to change my name. It was a choice I had made, and I had decided how I wanted to be known. I also use a different nickname to what I used as a child (so now I am generally known as either my proper first name (Alicia) or Lissy, instead of Alice, which is what I was called as a child) It is a very small thing, but it was my way of "owning" my identity.

I consider myself a pretty strong feminist, but I don't feel the surname issue can be easily resolved. I feel there are much more important things for us to worry about, not least the disgust with which an awful lot of people (male and female) seem to regard the female body.

stillstanding Sorry have I been impolite and deserving of that ROFL or are you being mean to me?

I come from a family that taught workers to read in Lancashire, I had an Uncle who fought fascists in Spain and my dad is a marxist so forgive my rhetoric but I'm rather bloody proud of it.

"What's you response to the argument that when you become a Mrs you ally yourself with marking women's marital status and that's when women become property."

Ummm ... I become property by my marital status being noted? That's the argument?! I guess my response would be to ROFL.

I agree that that the conventional distinction in titles between men and women is far from ideal but no one has to follow this - just use Ms. But I don't accept that by not doing so a woman becomes marital property. How ludicrous. Who is suggesting this?? The point is that every woman gets to choose what she wants to be called/titled. It is all about choice and so-called feminists who think that every woman needs to conform with some so-called feminist ideology give feminism a bad name.

Seriously. Focus on the real issues.

ninegleams/kat2907 - well to me it just sounds like you want to dicate to women what they should do. When you do it you are showing 'solidarity to feminist ideology' but if I told a woman what to do with her choice of name no doubt I would be adjudged a misogynist sexist pig.

Oh I support choice, I'm just not certain it's as real as you think it is.

Sorry, sprogger, certainly didn't intend my comment as a swipe at your social circle. You were saying that women you know do not think about whether or not to change their names at all. I was saying that that is inconceivable to me. We were discussing people we know. Ultimately this was going to be anecdotal and I was acknowledging that the people we know would be different.

I detest the idea of 'more important things to worry about' as if we should only ever tackle the biggest problem in the world then work downwards.

When kids see that it is the norm for women to take a man's surname on marriage, what do they make of this, and how does it shape how they view gender roles?

Of course it's easy to say that women have a choice, and indeed they do. But 'tradition' is a huge pressure/ influence on women, that's why people spend 15k on weddings and argue about dresses. Women want the perfect day, the perfect traditions followed etc.

And men who change their names upon marriage will be looked at like they are aliens.

So it's not an equal choice is it. I wouldn't change my name in a million years. I wouldn't ban it or pressurise women who want to change their name as that is up to them, but I can debate the politics of it all day long and indeed I will.