to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

nina - jeez, I suppose you also believe women are oppressed by housework and childcare too then? That we must throw off the bonds of housewifery for the greater good...

What is this greater good? A world where women cannot make their own choices, where they are forced into lifestyles they don't want? Yes, for the sake of the greater good... The argument is women shouldn't take their husband's name because women should be have freedom and equality... yes, that works as an argument...

We women get to choose the 'freedom' of our individuality being squashed by feminism or by men? What kind of world do you live in? It's so strange to make your perceptions of other people's definitions of you SO important.

Nina, I take your point but I would seperate the two examples:

ie, yes, you're right about the proportionality of people who do make the kind of choices I offered as examples, but I don't think that takes away from the fact that the choice is there. I am not naive though, and of course I understand that there's still progress to be made - a male nurse still gets raised eyebrows, a female being the main breadwinner while the husband stays home to look after children is still worthy of comment and perhaps some sly digs. But it's going in the right direction.

On your examples, absolutely, I agree that those are huge problems that still exist and that need to be dealt with, but I am not sure that choosing to implement your "choice" re name, career etc (or not) will have a direct impact on things like SMP or pay gaps.

Overall, I'm a big believer in language perpetuating meaning, and therefore instinctively wish that everyone chose to use Ms, married or not. But, even more than that, I believe it's choices that are important, so I respect the choices others make and remind myself that at least they are choices, as opposed to edicts handed down by law or society. In the meantime, I often think of wedding rings as a good example - it wasn't that long ago that few men chose to wear wedding rings and men who didn't want to wear one were considered normal. Now, most women I know insist that their husbands wear a ring if they're going to. So in that case, both the husband and wife are visibly making a public statement re their marital status - but nonetheless it remains a choice.

We're in the process of sorting this one out... we've been married for 5 years and I've kept my own name as I don't see why I should suddenly take on a different identity after 34 years of being quite content with my own...

but now that I'm pregnant, it looks like we're going double barrelled (all of us - hubby will change to double-barrelled by deed poll too). That way we all have the same name, but neither of us lose our identity...

sorted!

I was agreeing with you ABetaDad, sorry I can see how my post might be read as snarky to you, was just lazy typing/phrasing.

It is legal for people in this country to change their names after the age of 18 isn't it? This is a law available to everyone? If that is the case then how people choose to use that option is entirely their decision.

My SIL decided that she would prefer to use her middle name as her last name, so she changed it officially. If the baby I am pregnant with now is a girl she will be given the same middle name as SIL so that if she prefers to have a different name but still wants a family "tie" then there is one available.

My nephew decided that he wanted nothing further to do with his birth father, so he changed his last name to that of my sister's maiden last name (i.e the same as mine), despite the fact that she had married someone else who he loved as his Dad and she had his last name.

I view names as extremely flexible things, just pick one you like and go with it.

This reminds me of my first ever foray into Mumsnet.
It was a bit of a baptism by fire.

See here

In one of my posts on that thread I linked to this inflammatory but amusing article which represents how I feel but perhaps uses stronger wording

I just cannot believe that in this day and age women choose to allow their marital status to define them. Drives me spare! I refuse to use a title, and if I ever am forced to, when making an online purchase which cannot complete until every field is filled in, for example, I will always select Mr!
How can we expect equality when we still view a woman as an extension of a man, part of his property. Raises my blood pressure if I think about it too much.

My mum and dad were never married and I had my dad's surname, but my mum's surname as my 2nd middle name. When I got married I took DH's surname (didn't really want to keep my dad's surname much) and DS has my mum's surname as his 2nd middle name

When my brother and SIL got married I remember raising an eyebrow at her changing her name, given she is a fairly outspoken feminist. However, her explanation was, they were living in Germany. She is a freelance photographer with a fairly bog standard German surname. By changing her name she stood out in the crowd.

In a bizzare sort of way, changing her name was a feminist statement. It improved her career, allowing her to become the main breadwinner when their daughter was born.

We both have both surnames iygwim. We put them together in a double barrelled surname (which was easy as both short) so both changed our surname, I thought it was only fair. But I think everyone should do what they want, it is a very personal thing.

I'm Ms Myname and have been since I stopped using Miss, when I was around 18. DH is Mr Hisname, as he's always been. The DC have my surname before his surname but we don't double-barrel because we don't want to be Mr and Mrs Myname-Hisname. Thus far nobody thinks we're not part of the same family and I haven't been accused of kidnapping when flying on my own with the DC.

This subject comes up regularly on MN and there's a real problem in the way that most women either give it no thought at all or try to think up excuses for name-changing, even twisting it round to pretend they've done it for 'feminist' reasons like slug's SIL, or the 'I did it for the children' one.

Fact is, it's clearly patriarchal nonsense. It represents one family signing over their daughter as a chattel to a man's family. It defines women by their married status while men are not. It defines the woman and the children as property of the man and the man as the head of the household. It loses the female line to history - ask any keen genealogist - and maintains women's second class citizen status.

Our time would be better spent working out a modern alternative which suits the 21st century.

In theory I support everyone's right to choose their name on marriage, ut to echo some of he sentiments here, why does that involve preserving the sexist status quo for so many? I have only ever met one man who took his dw's name, yet have lost count of the women who have taken their dhs. We double barrel for the children ( and sometimes for us) and I am amused that the assumption is that we are unmarried.

BlingLoving, I can really see where you're coming from on the uncertainty that 'choosing to implement your "choice" re name, career etc (or not) will have a direct impact on things like SMP or pay gaps'. I think that it might be indicative of change in the general attitude towards gender equality when the choice appears to have been made more freely (for instance if more women seem to be choosing the option that isn't the status quo).

In actuality my position on these things is probably more similar to yours than is coming across.

"It represents one family signing over their daughter as a chattel to a man's family"

But how is that any different from the woman keeping her father's/grandfather's/great-grandfather's name?

The FAMILY isn't signing her over, she is CHOOSING to change her name (which by the way, unless you change in deed-poll, your legal name is the one you were born with, not the one you marry)

I can't believe how much venom this thread is generating. Surely it's no-one else's business what you call yourself?

Ermintrude I think I love you.

How many of you were walked down the aisle by your father?

I chased my Dad down the aisle. He got carried away and just legged it without me!

lol Chicken - lovely image!

"How many of you were walked down the aisle by your father?"

Under the eyes of the big MAN himself you mean?

My Dad asked me if he would be required to walk me down the aisle. I was shocked - have been an ardent feminist since I was a tiny girl. I just said 'do I look like a possession???'
This is something else which disturbs me.
The other night I was having dinner with some friends. One of the women I don't know well said she would expect her future fiance to ask her father's permission for her hand. I think food came out of my nose at that point.

Asking permission would piss the hell out of me.

Why can't we all just choose for ourselves and accept the choices of other people?

Yes, people make assumptions to call you Mrs DH, but people make assumptions about many many things, we're human, it's what we do.

I think a lot of you are pissed that some women do actually prefer to take their husband's names. What difference does that make to your life, really?

I think so too Nina! And I'm always happy to engage with a fellow strident feminist. I get tired of people thinking I'm weird!

The best solution to the Miss/Mrs/Ms dilemma is to get a PhD . Or become a physician. [What do female surgeons do at the point their male counterparts revert to Mr, I wonder?]

I did take DHs surname (didn't like the one I came with). So now bar one initial we're addressed identically.

My father walked me down the aisle because I knew it would mean a lot to him. But he walked me down the aisle and then sat right down with no giving away. That was as much of a compromise as I felt happy with; personally I would have felt happier not being walked down the aisle at all, but the wedding wasn't entirely about me.

"which by the way, unless you change in deed-poll, your legal name is the one you were born with, not the one you marry" is bollocks, at least in England and Wales. For a woman, getting married is itself sufficient proof of a legal change of name with no need for a deed poll. But not for men.

curiosity, just to jump back to before this really kicked off, are you genuinely saying that you get (say) Christmas cards addressed to "Miss Youroriginalname and Mr TheCat" from people who are perfectly well aware that you and Mr TheCat are married and that you prefer to be known as Mrs TheCat?

If you feel so strongly about it there is no need to get married in the first place! Stay single and keep your name.
I am a unit with DH-I am not a chattel.I would much rather be a family unit with DH and DCs than my birth family-much as I love them.
If you think it makes you a chattel it seems very odd that you prefer being a chattel of your father!! You have masses of names in your ancestry-why cling to your fathers-you had no choice when it was given to you?
I don't actually care what people do, as long as they get on with it quietly-to make a big issue of not swapping one man's name for another man's name seems silly!

I think there are women who spend a lot of time patting themselves on the back about what a feminist they are yet are happy to not contribute practically or financially to the family.

Subsequently they have a great deal of time to judge other women.

Sadly, some of these women are not as clever as they think, and much of their ranting reads like a C grade essay in Womens' Studies 101.

Get a job.

Professor A man can't use getting married as proof of a legal change of name in the same way?

I walked myself down the aisle.