to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

Thanks Ermintrude! (Passes over icepack! )

Don't get this "divorced and loose women" thing either. Dammit, I'm so old, I was around during the the initial debate back in the 70's, and the "divorced" label was never ever an issue.

Men are never defined by their marital status in the way that women are every single time they interact with officialdom. And lots of divorced women still call themselves Mrs.

I rather like the old fashioned epithet "Mistress" (before it became that joke about being the thing that comes between a Mister and a Mattress ). It was a term often used by mature and independent women regardless of marital status.

I use my married name when I'm booking cabs or ordering takeaway pizzas because it's much easier to spell . I use Ms when anyone official is involved, and I'm still Miss as far as my bank manager or GP are concerned, even though they know I'm married with kids.

I take the point that by keeping to one family name you assert your identity as a family unit - that's great. But how does that work for a blended family? I was never married to DS's father (he refused, being a skanky old hippy), DS has his father's surname (because EX-DP is a very old- fashioned lapsed Catholic skanky old hippy ) and I married DH when DS was 6.

We don't always make these choices because we er, "burn our bras" 9heaven forfend), but because because we have real decisions to make about our kid's sense of identity.

I quite like the sound of Mistress too. Nice and strong (owner and director of things IMO). But in truth I don't really care that much about titles (I was being irritating earlier I'm afraid). I'm university educated and a feminist and I use my first name only pretty much whenever I can. I quite enjoy not giving a surname, so I guess there are many ways to defy convention. Actually I don't know many people who aren't university educated (I work in a world where most people are graduates) and as I said earlier I am not actually sure what title most of my female colleagues use.

That's not exactly what I said sprogger. I just hate the word Ms (pretty was the wrong word to use) and I don't see why I should use it because other people want me to! I do not care who knows I am married and I wouldn't care who knew if I was single-Uncle Tom Cobbly and all can know, it isn't a secret!! I only ever give it if asked on forms anyway. Marriage doesn't define me -it is completely unimportant. I only ever give my first name, unless asked specifically for more.

Having looked it up it seems to have started in 17th Century as another alternative, mainly I guess because they were very lax about spelling and most people couldn't write anyway. It was revived in its present meaning in 20th century in USA.
Having looked at debates elsewhere, women are very split on it. If it was generally liked there wouldn't be an argument-most women would use it and Mrs and Miss would be left to a quaint few.

I see nothing wrong with us all having the choice. You may think that me saying it is ugly is ridiculous, but luckily I am free to be as ridiculous as I like!!

Any 'Ms' i have known are either divorsed or doing what you are doing for the same reason you are doing it. I would find it offensive because i am married and i expect to be DEFINED as such. To friends and thoose close to me i am Brokken, to everyone else I am Mrs Harted. That is all they need to know. I am married and so not available and my family goes under the name of Harted, for which i have given my reasons and have been ignored.

Brokkenhearted, you are, as far as I know, the only person in the whole world who a) thinks that Ms is only used by divorced women and b) would be offended by the suggestion that you might be divorced!

Blimey BrokkenHarted you must be a real femme fatale, having to signal your unavailability to all and sundry like that. Is your DH terribly plain and unlikely to attract attention from other women so it's OK for him to stick with 'Mr'? And should I be upset that despite being Ms Myname and wearing no wedding ring I've not been besieged by amorous males this past 15 years? (well, only the ones whose besieging doesn't take marital status into account in any case ie, most of them ).

Would it be very rude of me to suggest that you might be very very young?

Mr is a married term and he wears his ring. I think it's very important to signal my unavailability. I feel akward if a man tries to flirt with me so prevent that buy wearing my ring and being reffered to as Mrs. I should note that this is also to do with my age. People expect me NOT to be married this young.

I was taught in school that Ms was a divorsed term and learned that women such as yourselves chose to use it as a general term. Were you Miss before you got married or were you always Ms btw?

I would be offended. Divorse is only an option to me in abuse and long term infedelity cases. In those cases i would not be offended, any other and i would.

I have no issue with what other women chose to do, but for me these things are important.

Not rude seeker, correct. I am 19.

And do you also have a religious faith that is very important to you?

yes. I have already said this. Please do not dismiss me because of this. I am a very intellegent young woman. I am not clueless. I have made my decision just like you have made yours and i have thought through my decisions. Btw for some reason people seem to think my faith suggests that women are really below men ad should be door mats. This is grossly inaccurate.

All organised religions give women a status below that of men - not just 'equal but different' - because the religions were 'written up' by men. But that's another, enormous, subject, and many women choose to try to change things from the inside of religions which they are free to do.

I was Miss until I became a bit more clued-up about the world, around the age of 17, since when I've been Ms. Never associated it with divorce because I always knew it was the revival of an older term selected to be a direct substitute for 'Mr'. Which is only fair. So Brokkenharted, I'm afraid your teacher was fibbing.

btw, if men try to flirt with me I've never found it difficult to rebuff them politely without mentioning I'm married, just that I'm not interestesd. But personally I find that all but the most insensitive men don't start flirting unless they get a signal that it's OK to do so, and I don't give them that signal, which avoids tricky situations.

according to the oxford english dictionary advice on addressing a letter,
a girl should be Miss
an unmarried woman is Ms
a married woman is Mrs DH's firstname/initials DH'ssurname
a divorced woman is Mrs OwnFirstname/initials DH'ssurname.
a widowed woman is still the same as the married woman. (unless they divorced before he died)

No need to be patronising ermintrude.

I said women are not meant to be doormats. That is true. The Bible tells men to respect their wives. I would always say my husband was the head of the house though. That doesnt mean he makes all the decisions (he wishes ) or that i am stuck doing all the housework (or any )

I would totally disagree that you were clued-up. Much the opposite.

I am aware of the world ermintrude. I understand how you feel about the whole thing, I just dont think you are right.

If I am wrong about 'Ms' then that is fine. I still however think it is important for me to be Mrs.

I would be happy to tell any bloke that i wasn't interested but see it unnecessary to even be in that situation. Unfortunaley a lot of boys flirt regardless of the signal or not.

I am totally secure about being a women in our day and age and in our society. I have no deisre to be recognised as one the exact same as a man. I am not deluded.

While you are there t+TheDevil what does it say about Mr? Has Mstr totally gone out?

Brokkenharted, "Mr" is not a title just for married men, it applies to all men regardless of marital status.

Several of my friends from school married in their teens and were delighted to change their names because it signified a change to adult status for them. Getting married was definately a "rite of passage" to adulthood for young women 30 years ago.

But it is different if you marry much later in life because apart from any thing else, you are already an independent adult and your adult identity is firmly established entirely seperately from your husband and marriage (if that makes sense ).

My son goes as Mstr. I would find it bizarre to call him Mr at a young age.

Maybe then it was a rite of passage, for me it is purely because i am married.

Young men were always "Master" in my family too! I remember my little brother always received birthday cards etc from elderly relatives addressed to "Master" Surname.

Brokkenharted I wasn't being patronising and am acutely aware of what the bible says. And I definitely did become more clued up at 17, which was quite a long time ago.

Thedevileatsbabies Sounds like the OED needs to play catch-up. I remember having a huge hoo-ha about titles when I went to a do at Buckingham Palace a few years ago - they just didn't acknowledge Ms in their protocols and it was one of those events where your name is announced as you arrive. I said they could drop the title altogether and announce me as Firstname Surname but that was absolutely unthinkable . So they used Ms for me and many others even though the valet doing the announcements said it as though he were pronouncing a word in Klingon or something . Her Majesty didn't seem to notice...

Well i would have agreed with you when i was 17 also ermintrude. I got very into this whole thing, then realised how ridiculous what i was standing up for was and THEN became more clued-up.

If Mrs/Miss eventually got fased out and Ms was in it's place then that would be that and noone would know any different and it wouldn't be an issue. What my point is, is that some of us WANT to keep it. I guess i will always have my ring if my title is taken away from me but i would be very upset if it did.

Lol at your story though. You would think they wouldn't make such a big deal about it. If someone wants to be Ms thats their choice.

Brokkenhearted, I am old enough to be your grandmother, and I have seen a lot of life. Please, please make sure you keep your critical faculties working! The Biblical view of women is not one I would wish for my daughter or my grand daughter, and I would HATE to hear one of them saying that their husband was the head of the household, or, at 19, that there was no possibility of leaving her marriage unless for long term infidelity or abuse. I don't mean to be patronizing - I'm only saying what I would say to any young woman, either in RL or on here. You will bw a very different person in 20 years - and so will your husband.

ermintrude, that's quite funny!
i'm sure HM was fine with it: proctocol and everything

i'll check the OED when i get home tonight: i looked last night for that nugget.

(my dictionary is quite old now, though, it's dated 1998, so it might be out of date by now....)

Light weight article in This week's Time:

www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1930510,00.html

Yes seeker you are being patronising.
Yes I am sure i will be totally different in 20 years.
Leaving my marriage for any other reason in my opinion is not an option. No good would come from leaving it, only harm.
You dont seem to have a very good grasp of what the bible actually says about women.
Being the head of the house doesn't mean he is the controler. I have ALL our money. He does the cleaning. etc etc etc. We are not living in a man controled house here. i didnt marry a bad guy you know. He asks me if he can do x y and z because he respects how i feel about things. If i say no its no, end of. Vise versa. He gets the respet of being the head of the house if you like. He is our front man. I think it is natural for the man to be the head of the family. It is in our nature.
I am keeping my critical facilities going. I am here critising the way you think things should be.
I love how this has turned to picking on my age to make my points unvalid. Like i said, i am a very intellegent (yes young) women. I do think about things. There are many issues i have thought about and this is one of them.
I am not niave, i am aware that there is still some inequality going on. I am fine with this. I am not a person to keep quiet if i dont agree with something. If I had a problem with it at all i would not sit quietly so please do not lump me in as someone who is too intimidated by the new ideas (or whatever you wanna call it) and would prefere to sit unheard. That isnt in my nature at all.