to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

I'm hoping it's one of those cyclical things, so will re-emerge again in a bit. Once they are fed up with being defined by their relationships with men.

I think that Miss is pretty and Ms ugly!

I would agree that women don't appreciate the battles fought for them-especially when they don't vote.
Surely however it is a sign of success?-things move on and issues change.
Women have always been strong in my family and as a lone girl with brothers I was never treated differently, so names and titles are completely unimportant to me.
I think we should be free to choose.

I think pisces is a pretty word, and cancer an ugly one, but that's not relevant if I'm asked what my star sign is! "Prettiness" is in the eye (ear) of the beholder, I don't think you can make an argument out of that. You're right there have been lots of successes. I think I do worry about rights being eroded, you can see that with human/civil rights, what we take for granted can be taken away from us. And compared to UK, women's rights are pretty crap in much of the world.

'"Prettiness" is in the eye (ear) of the beholder

Exactly-we are all different. I hate the idea that all women must think the same.
I really don't care what name they adopt or which title. I just resent being told that I am a sheep for changing my name and it being assumed that I haven't given it thought.
If people want to stick to their birth surname and Ms, they are completely at liberty to do so, but please don't tell me that I must do the same!
I have my DHs name-I am an equal partner -it was a choice made for reasons listed earlier-I am most definitely not his property. I couldn't care less who knows my marital status and I think Ms sounds dreadful.
It feels right for me -I am not saying that it should feel right for anyone else.

I don't think we should choose/use a title based on whether it sounds pretty or not. I'm sorry you think Ms sounds dreadful, I wouldn't think of saying that about Miss. Maybe it's an ugly word for an ugly feminist! I use the term for ideological reasons rather than aesthetic ones.

I don't like Ms because to me it is a meaningless construct, adopted as an equivalency to Mr, and a strip down of Mrs and Miss. I do associate it with a certain sort of stridency, and perhaps that is a terrible stereotype. I'm very glad that I don't have to use it though. Maybe if people were always asking me if I'm a Miss or a Mrs I'd feel differently, but I can't remember the last time anyone actually asked me that. I suspect this might be because I rarely get unsolicited post, and I don't order catalogues, or if I do I use the internet to do so. I do find it annoying if Mr comes up as the default choice though.

As to ermentrude's double barreling "rules" suggestion, I'm just glad that at the moment there is choice, because double barreling either my parents names or my husband and my names would IMO sound very silly (my parents name doesn't lend itself to doubling up). It also ignores the fact that some families have had double-barreled surnames for much longer than this current debate (one branch of my family has been double-barreled for seven or eight generations).

But then I'm more keen on continuing the move towards informality, where most of the time you can just use your first name, the one that is given to each of us as an individual with no strings attached (other than our parent's good or bad taste). As I think that movement is a product of some of the feminist battles of the past I am happy to embrace it, and feel I can still say I am a part of the feminist movement.

I can agree with that 100% nooka.

The important thing that feminists have given (and I count myself one)is choice. Everyone is free to choose and if they think a name ugly that is up to them-there shouldn't be someone trying to tell them it isn't. (It is a complete waste of time to me as it still comes from the masculine root-but that is only my opinion).

I think that women are very hard on themselves-they only have to make a decision, on any subject, for another woman to tell them they are wrong!
Life would be dreadfully boring if we were all forced into the same boxes, because someone decrees that their idea is best. At the very least people could acknowledge that someone with a different opinion has thought about it and isn't just following blindly following tradition.

Mr ain't pretty but men don't have to think about it, choose it or in any way endorse it. I haven't heard any of them complaining about their lack of a 'right to choose', or indeed choosing to change their names to those of their DWs' in order to express love, pride, embarrasment at their original name, love of their DW's name, dislike of their parents, teasing at school blah blah. They seem quite happy blindly following tradition, actually.

This has moved back to the original OP's point! I use Ms BTW. I just use it with my new surname rather than my old. But yes, I am the only member of staff who uses it at my school I think...

"It is still predominately used by women who have gone through further education and most, although not all, of my friends who use Ms began to do so at uni."

I think there is a sneaky implication in there and, since we are back to personal experience, most of my friends who went to university don't use Ms.

Incidentally, FallenMadonna, I see a big difference between name-changing and Ms/Mrs/Miss. In my opinion the arguments re inequality/definition by marital status/language for Ms are much stronger for Ms and not that strong for name-changing.

stillstanding, not sneaky at all. Women who have been educated to degree level are statistically more likely both to define themselves at feminists and to call themselves Ms. This does not imply that every Ms is a graduate, nor that all graduates are Ms - nor even that there are many feminists who wouldn't necessarily think to define themselves as such..,

Why is Ms "dire" in your opinion Piscesmoon? Do you feel there are connotations you don't like? You just don't like the way it looks or sounds? I am genuinely interested as I think this might get to the nub of the issue.

Sorry - Just saw your post on this exact point. Your feeling about "prettiness" pretty much sums up my problem with Miss etc in the first place - I'm not a pretty little slip of a thing, wearing gloves and waiting for men to take me for dinner, and I have no desire to use a title that implies that.

"I don't like Ms because to me it is a meaningless construct, adopted as an equivalency to Mr, and a strip down of Mrs and Miss." - yes, exactly. You have just expressed most clearly why I LIKE Ms. I like it for the exact same reason you dislike it.

"I do associate it with a certain sort of stridency, and perhaps that is a terrible stereotype. I'm very glad that I don't have to use it though." - it is a terrible stereotype, yes. And is also the reason why so many women don't take it. It does seem interesting to me that a simple title, created to make women and men treated similarly has managed to gain a reputation as "strident".

See now, the 'strident' thing would be a plus for me...

I think that it sounds ugly, although I have been told that I am wrong to think that. I think it is the lack of vowel. It seems to have come about by amalgamating Mrs and Miss and they both come from Mister, so therefore Ms does too. I think that if there was an attractive word, which followed the rules and had a vowel, it would be used and become the norm. It would seem sensible to me that girls had a title and it changed at a certain age, but no one seems to have come up with anything imaginative.
I know a lot of people on here like Ms and use it but, say what you like, it hasn't taken off the way that it should have done. If it was successful it would be widespread.
I think 'strident' is a good word-it seems to be making a statement that isn't the least important to me.

Can't see the vowel in Mrs, pisces!!!

Ms is pronounced Mizz - can't see a problem myself!

Very true-I missed that one! (it sounds as if it has a vowel!)

I remember a teen (I think) mag called Mizz magazine. I suppose it's like saying Missus, we add in the vowel when we say it.

Well YANBU to feel this way but YAB a bit U to be complaining about it mostly because in this day and age you really DON'T have to be defined by your marital status or surname.
Plenty of women keep their own surname after they marry, go by Ms instead of Mrs and double barrel the DC's surnames.

But I do quite like being a "Mrs"

"(it sounds as if it has a vowel)"

So Mrs sounds as if it's got a vowel and is therefore easy to say, and Ms doesn't and therefore isn't?

Sounds, I have to say, like post hoc rationalization to me!

that this is STILL going on.

'Ms' IS the title of a divorsed women. Whether you all want to use it because you have decided that it should be a general title or not. Women chose to use it for themselves....great. Not me though.

If i was called 'Ms' i would be totally offended because I am a married women, not a divorsed woman.

Ms is not a title of divorced women. Have you not noticed that many women use it who are not divorced, or are you holding your hands over your ears and going lalala not listening whilst picking out the latest in crinolines?

So there you go, no need to be offended next time someone calls you Ms (although why you should imagine anyone who doesn't know you would be rushing to accuse you of being divorced escapes me - along with why that would be quite so insulting... ) They're just using the correct term for an adult women without making any assumptions about whether or not you are married. Just like they'd say 'Mr' for a man regardless of his marital status. So that's nice, isn't it?

Just off to make cranial contact with that brick wall again...

I can go all round in circles-I just don't like it! If it was a success it would be used by the majority.
I think that we should all agree to disagree, or it will trundle on for weeks-and not get any further!