to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

Someone explained to me a long time ago that new men were very much like old men, just a bit more cunning!

Much as I love and respect Dh and his views, I wouldn't go as far as he does, I think there are some compelling reasons for taking a man's name-there are plenty on this thread. But, yes, I'm very glad to have met someone who did not think my opinions were strange in the slightest.

Haven't read the entire thread but I am quite similar to Lexi.

Until last year, I was Dr. X Jabberwocky and Dh was Mr. Dh although socially we were generally known as Mr and Mrs Dh. Then when ds1 started school it began to just be confusing and kind of a pain to have different names although I could have certainly continued to do so. I decided to change so that we would all have the same last name. At work I am Dr. X Jabberwocky Dh and socially we are all now the same.

I did take quite a bit of time to think it over - 7 years actually - as the first marriage i did the double-barreled thing and then it was such a hassle to change back to my maiden name. But having used that one for a number of years I decided I could muster the strength to go through all the legalities of one final change.

Dh does have a lovely last name that sounds divine with my first name. If it had been something that I didn't like I think I would have stayed jabberwocky ad infinitum

Haha Abatdead. That does indeed.

' I am gobsmacked that you think you should be broadcasting your marital status. '

I fail to see why it matters! I know people who call themselves Miss who are married. It is like a wedding ring-I have married friends who don't wear them (some of them call themselves Mrs and don't wear one). No one notices-I proved it by taking mine off for about 4 yrs when I was a widow-people still assumed I had a husband!
I wouldn't assume anything from Mrs or Miss, but Ms makes me cringe.(I will call people Ms, if it is their choice-as long as they don't think it universal and that they can apply it to all -I won't accept it).

I agree that name-changing "because I am proud to be DH's wife" (like "because I love my husband") is a lame argument in itself. I don't think it's even an argument really. In fact it's just as lame as when name-keepers say "because I am individual" as if a couple who share the same surname are somehow less individual than a couple who doesn't. Nonsensical.

I certainly don't think that any name changers shoudl be calling any name keepers names, but you can hardly blame us for getting defensive.

As some has already said its not the name change thats important (to me anyway) its the implication that I am submissive and have no brain of my own, but surely if I kept my name because thats the feminist thing to do I would be just as bad as following the tradition.

Pretty much everyone on here who is happy with their naem change has given valid reasons for their decision - it may not mean much to you, but it obviously does to us, we've thought about ti and made a choice and for some of the namekeepers on here to belittle us for it is insulting.

Lexillicious - I have say I find it funny (peculiar not haha) that you have had people questioning you when you've said that yes you are Dr XX - how rude. But then I am of thegeneration that knows that a being a woman does not rule you out for being a doctor.

Re the whole Miss and Mrs thing, I honestly don't get it. The fact I wear a wedding ring shows more people that I am married rather than my title.

I only ever use it when filling in forms, actually thats a lie, I used it the other day when I was complaining about something and the customer service people pissed me off. I was very haughty and told them my name was Mrs Name no they couldn't call me needanew!

I never introduce myself as Mrs Name, its always Needanew

There are equally good arguments for both sides which is why there isn't a 'right answer'-merely a 'right answer for you'.

Some people think Ms a good compromise-some people think it the worst of both worlds. I'm quite happy to be called Miss (even if officially not)but I won't be called Ms under any circumstances.

The important thing is that I don't expect everyone to adopt the same, or belittle someone else's choice. (If feminists wanted me to keep my name, or be called Ms-they should have asked me first-not just make assumptions for every woman).

Surely it is all about choice?

I never ever use mrs- if asked my name I give it-first and surname only.
It is a bit pointless being Ms as a teacher. Secondary pupils might get it, but primary couldn't cope unless you made a huge issue of it. Even if you got them to use it they wouldn't understand why it was important (neither do I).

Just thining more about this whole title thing. Just don;t fill in that section of the form if it isn;t relative. I know that I don't complete the ethnic part of forms because it rally doesn't matter whether I'm white, black, irish or chinese.

I also don;t fill in the part about household income either - unless of course its to do with taking out a loan!

I know loads of teachers who are Ms, including my DD's (happily married, 50 yrs old, 2 kids) Reception teacher. That's how children will learn. .

Am slightly , but not that surprised when I think about it, at the number of women on this thread who refer to other women as feminists, meaning they are not.

On a lighter note, a friend of mine refuses to give a title when filling in web order forms etc. and just puts (eg) Jane Smith. She recently received a parcel from an internet bookseller addressed to Empty Jane Smith. The database just couldn't cope

NaNN I don't mind the first about "Dr? Licious" because my first name is equally male/female (Alex) but when I say yes that's me, and they query it again, that's when I get shirty. Or when face to face with the two of us and someone addresses Mr Licious as the Dr.

As far as a 'reason' for taking the Mrs title goes, does a woman actually need one? Personally I'm just following the convention as do the vast majority of marriages, not assuming there has to be something paternalistic/misogynist in it, and therefore not feeling I need to make a point. I suppose I see Mrs in the German sort of way of 'adult' status, and Dr as a professional status. Which is to say, if you wanted to 'downgrade' a younger/unmarried man, you should probably call him 'Master'.

I just don't think it really signifies that much. I have a very "new" husband (well not to me, as we've been together on and off for coming up 20 years) whose name I bear. Neither of us wear rings (complicated reasons) but I use the title Mrs when titles are required. However I am also a career woman, have always been the main wage earner, and would describe myself as a feminist in most arguments (probably with more of a swing towards the individual than most traditional feminists though). I have friends that have kept their name but have much more traditional relationships or roles. I have friends that insist on being called "Ms" and get upset when men hold doors open for them, and yet are doormats to the men in their life. The man I knew who changed his surname was no "better" a feminist than my dh, his circmstances and opinions on one issue were just different. That's why I really do think it is the life you lead that will ultimately shape the next generation more than the names we are called.

My son and daughter have a dad at home who does the cooking and cleaning and a mum who goes to work. I really don't think the surname I have chosen is here or there as to the constraints on their future lives.

I can see that if you feel angry about being constantly called the wrong thing, or having people make assumptions about you it would be easy to feel that if everyone else had broken away from Miss/Mrs you wouldn't be having to have those battles. And probably true. But we don't all choose to have the same battles (wouldn't life be boring if we did).

Thats what I mean Lexillicious, I'm amazed that in this day and age someone will questiont he fact that a woman could be a doctor or automatically look to the man when they refer to Dr.

I have to maybe backtrack onthe whole title thing a bit, DH reminded me earlier on I have got annoyed with people when they call me Ms, I've corrected them and they stil insist on calling me Ms and I would be equally pissed if someone called me Mrs when I'd already told them I'm a Ms. So maybe not a backtrack as such as I don;t think in general the title is important but if you've told someone what you're called and they persist in the wrong title then yes that is important.

I love the fact that the database couldn;t cope with the missing title, you'd have thought that this would have been encountered before now. Maybe that's what we should do, all leave the title box empty!!

Excellent post Nooka.

I'm married and will probably at some point in the future change my name and title. No hurry though.

The life I lead tells the tale.

'Am slightly , but not that surprised when I think about it, at the number of women on this thread who refer to other women as feminists, meaning they are not.

Where ever did I say that I wasn't?! I can still be one and not care too hoots about changing my name or not, and I don't care who knows my marital status-it isn't a secret.I know plenty of feminists who think Ms is dreadful.

Lexi, just had a patient look at me askance and loudly proclaim to the waiting room that I "looked more like a nurse than a doctor" I ultimately decided to just give her a look but on another day I would have and have actually said "So what is a doctor supposed to look like?"

or you could have told her you'll be sure to carry your scalpel in clear view next time. or something else scary, like a Really Big Syringe.

I've used the Austin Powers line a couple of times to limited effect... "I didn't spend seven years in Evil Geophysical School to be called Miss..."

I hope the same patient realises that she is quite likely to have a male nurse.

It pisses me off a bit, yes. I get called Mr St Tiny Tears on the X-Factor thread. It's Mr C**t actually.

pisces - several posters have referred to feminsists or 'the feminists' making it clear they are not.

I don't know any feminists who hate Ms but if you know a few I can't imagine they think Miss or Mrs is preferable. I also don't know anyone who objects to doors being held open for them, as long as it's not accompanied by some daft 'ladies first' remark, and even then if it's an old chap one just grins and bears it, surely. I hold doors open for people, just because it's a nice polite thing to do.

In any case, we're well off the point, which is that men don't change their names or titles whereas women are expected to. This is an inequality.

the way I read the OP is not much bothered about what men do, but the too many options for women and the apparently loaded decision of whether to take another name. The problem simply doesn't exist for the men.

actually, on the thread title alone you could say it's about not wanting to have a title or a surname at all (as those invite analysis of what age/status you are).

And then you end up being Sting, Bono, Bjork, Madonna or Pele. Or Zorro.

IMHO

wearing of ring and title of "mrs" - complete individual choice and recognition of desire to show marital status publicly. Fine.

Taking bloke's name - subservience to tradition - WHY should it be the bloke's name? WHY not yours? WHY should your children be named after him and not you? (and please - because you've been through the pain of labour????! Gimme strength!). Want one family name? Fine, but why should it ALWAYS be the man's?

We all take the vote for granted today, but how many of us would have been suffragettes? That's what I think about when I hear people saying that it didn't occur to them not to take their husbands name. There are reasons not to do it - like there were reasons to protest that women didn't have the vote.

I almost chickened out of double-barrelling my daughters name because of a general assumption that she would take my husbands surname. In the end, the idea of explaining to her when she was of an age to be asking the question "why do I have daddy's name and not yours?" made me realise how important it was for her to have both. The idea that in the 21st century I would have to tell her that she had her dad's family name because it was a tradition based on the fact that a woman was a mere possession of her husband and that we perpetuated that, made me realise that no way was I buying into it myself - or making her do so. I apologise if I have repeated other posts here - I wasn't able to read the entire thread, but its something I feel strongly about.