to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

Surely they discuss it anyway? I changed mine and was happy to-but it isn't something I just did because it is expected.

"The original post didn't ask if Miss/Mrs/Ms and name-changing were the most pressing issues on the planet, so no need to accuse those who see them as important of some deluded inflation of their significance."

Ermintrude13, I think you may be missing the point on why some posters (myself included) keep raising the issue of the significance of this.

I think that this is a significant discussion and one that needs to be had. It is important that we challenge and test existing practices to see whether or not they still hold up. I hope that a woman who reads this thread who may have been inclined to name-change without thinking about it will now give the issue her due consideration. What she goes on to do in the end is not any concern of mine but she shouldn't name-change to her DH's name just because her mother did.

But I also think that it is very important to challenge the attitudes and judgemental attitudes that some posters (yourself in particular) show towards women who do name-change. In this respect it is relevant to emphasis that name-changing is not particularly significant in the fight for equality. If it were than some of the extraordinarly rude comments (little wifey, hubby knows best etc) might be warranted (although imo hard to see how in any context but hey ho).

There is a subtle difference between saying "this is not important and we shouldn't bother discussing it" and "this is not important so we don't need to judge and be offensive to people who don't share our opinion" but it is a difference.

ABetaDad -
If it has nothing to do with equality or inequality, why do you talk of one partner "giving in" to the other when taking his or her name?

Others who are saying "it isn't important" - if you don't think it is important, what are you doing on this thread? I think it is important what my name is. It has a lot of emotional and symbolic power for me and it is my verbal face in a world of words. It is as part of me and as intrinsic to me as my physical face that represents me in the physical world. If you don't think things like this matter to you, then a. why bother even to come on here and say so? Frankly, I don't believe you; and b. even if it is true that it doesn't matter to you, that can't stop it mattering to me.

stillstandig - just thinking back to wen me and DW got married. We never discussed name changing until about 6 months before.

DW said she was going to name change. I asked if she was sure as she had a professional career and people knew her by her maiden name. She was very sure and indeed adamant she wanted my name. We did dicsuss it but only at her instigation and I was happy with whatever she decided.

The problem I forsee is where a couple discuss it and the man does not want to change his name to that of his future DW. I am quiet happy that a few men do and more so in the USA and I am sure the UK in future.

How then do a couple resolve the issue of name changing when a man does not want to? Well the woman has and should have a number of choices. Retain her name, change to her husband's surname or ask him if he will double barrel. There is no question in my mind of anyone being forced by their future DH/DW into name changing.

Is anyone advocating here that women should seek to force their future DH to name change? Surely not. No one would accept men forcing their DW to name change.

Yes to discussion of course but NO to forcing people to name change. That is all I am saying. That is all I am being pragmatic and practical about.

"I think it is important what my name is. It has a lot of emotional and symbolic power for me and it is my verbal face in a world of words. It is as part of me and as intrinsic to me as my physical face that represents me in the physical world."

Vezzie, it's hard to know what your point is. Absolutely everyone on this thread - name-changers and name-keepers alike - would agree with what you said about the importance of your name. What they disagree on is the importance of keeping their birth name. Name-changers wouldn't bother to change their name if it wasn't important to them.

phew! now i'm fully caught up!

i'm quite interested in the symbol of the wedding ring. i think it's fairly recently that men have worn a ring as well. although i'm not saying it's a new thing because i know people in my parents' generation who wear rings.
it is an outward visible symbol that you are married. fwiw, my dad always refused to wear a wedding ring, but has always maintained it's because his trade was electrician and gold is a very conductive metal... he has admitted once though that he just didn't think it was the done thing. now, my ex was very against wearing a ring had we got married because he doesn't like men wearing jewellery. . but his opinion is usually quite bigotted anyway.
my current OH is all for wearing a ring when we eventually get married.
the difference in opinion is also reflected in name changing for the 3: my dad wouldn't have even considered an alternative to my mum taking his name. my ex was ridiculously offended i didn't want to take his horrid name, but my current oh doesn't mind that i don't want to take his name (but he is unwilling to take mine because it might offend his dad's memory. (he's the only one of his siblings that has his dad's name because it was a second marriage). he doesn't mind having an alternative name for the children, though.

seeker: your point on wh ydoes it have to be "mrs" for a grown woman? I think it's reflected in the german Frau and french Madame, which simply means grown up woman's title rather than married woman's title.
and in actual fact, the etymology of the word in english has exactly the same root: it's short for mistress, which was just an adult woman.

piscesmoon: i think the cook being Mrs had a similar root to that: for her, she was the head of downstairs' domestic staff (the butler took control of everyone/thing else) and it was a mark of respect for her senior position.

I changed my name in my first marraige and as a young rather naive bride who was quite infactuated with her husband, perhaps even a little insecure I was pleased to do so.

However when I came to my senses I was proud to take my own name back, it was a sign that I was no longer a rather pathetic woman who loved a man who abused her.

I am not saying that is the case for all name changers, but it was the case for me.

I am going to get married for the second time and I am proud that dp and I have had a practical and pragmatic discussion about name changing. My daughter has my surname and I want very much for us all to be a cohesive family unit with the same name. I grew up with a different name to my family and I hated it. I have also spent a long time repairing myself from a tough start to adult life and motherhood, being Miss Morosky means something to me. I am not ready to give that up and I dont think I ever will be. My name is also very obviously a good Irish surname and my heritage as an Irish Catholic means a lot to me. I am also the last Morosky that I know of. DP has a brother, he is quite ambivalent about his name and family history and would like to share our family name.

DD has already changed her name and I don't want to do so again. I also understand that her father may feel hurt if she takes on the surname of another man.

He therefore will be taking our family name, this is after a discussion between the three of us, me, dp and our dd. Yhis, in my opinion, is how it should be.

ABetaDad, I agree with all that. No one should be forced to change their name - man or woman.

You ask how a couple should resolve the issue of name-changing when a man does not want to but the question should really be how you resolve the issue when neither the man nor the woman want to.

The point is (and I do think it is a fair one) that because of the historical tradition the expectation is almost always that the woman will name-change and that isn't fair.

In an ideal world both DH and DW would come to the table with equal cards but in the Real World the woman comes with lesser cards because couples making this decision will be influenced by convention and I suspect in more cases than not, if the couple want to share a name, being "pragmatic or practical" will mean that the woman changes.

Which isn't really fair or equal and I hope that in the future this practice will change so that more men do name-change and name-changing is more "balanced".

None of which is to say, I hasten to add, that I think that a woman who name-changes to her DH's name is not a feminist or is letting down the sisterhood or is propping up the "misogynistic model of our society" or deserves any vitriol or judgement. It is a perfectly valid choice and is just as good as any other.

"Brokkenharted - so you 'know' you're right? Haha, bless. I expect hubby knows best..."

Hahaha. We're are back in the playground, how lovely. If only he did Emintrude. Well if these are the women that will be leading the rest of us then i think i have nothing to worry about.

Morosky - that is a wonderful story and your decision seems the perfect solution. Your DP sounds like a real keeper!

'Others who are saying "it isn't important" - if you don't think it is important, what are you doing on this thread?'

I don't think it important. I am on the thread because I resent it being assumed that because I changed it I am a sheep who hasn't thought about it. I have thought about it and I changed because I wanted to change it.There isn't a 'right answer'-there is only a 'right answer for you'.

Piscesmoon sums it up perfectly

"What is wrong with Miss-are people ashamed of not having married?!!"

OMG. This sums up why so many of us insist on Ms. The point is that I don't think my marital status is relevant. Full stop. I was certainly not ashamed of being unmarried when I was single but I was Ms then and I will remain Ms until the day I die. I am gobsmacked that you think you should be broadcasting your marital status. And the implication here is that Ms is one of those titles you use if you're unmarried but "of a certain age". I'm 33, married, happy and Ms.

ABetaDad - of course people are defensive but its on both sides, you can't seriously have missed that it's not all the "name-keepers calling the name changers names"?

Precisely, Bleedingandlovingit. Men don't have to shout out their pride or shame at being bachelors or married men. They don't have to decide whether or not to change their names as a matter of course. They don't expect to be judged by it. Why should we?

Brokkenharted - kind of you to describe me as a leader though I'm not sure what you mean.

I asked DP last night if he'd like to take my name. (Using examples, not our real names) I'm currently Lexi Jones and intending to be known as Lexi Jones Smith. I'll be Mrs Smith when we are referred to as a couple, and Dr Lexi Jones Smith in my own right, ie at work. I'll remain Lt Jones in my TA officer side of life. Our son is called Bob Jones Smith.

We both have two middle names already and I'm no longer going to use mine (otherwise I'd be Lexi Jemima Baker Jones Smith, which is just silly!) He's currently Brian Gilbert John Smith and I asked if he'd like to take my surname Jones in place of his Gilbert John middles. So we'd both be Jones Smith. He thought this was not really something he'd like to do, thanks.

Interestingly, he then said "your dad would get a right hard-on at that, having all of us with his name wouldn't he!". To which I said "your dad will get a right hard-on at all of us taking his name won't he."

Still going to be Mrs Smith though. Will have years of amusement when people phone up and want Dr Jones Smith. "Yes, speaking." "Dr Smith?" "Yes, speaking." Ad infinitum...

stillstanding - I quite agree that everyone in this discussion is behaving as if their name is important - that is exactly my point, that it is disingenuous of anyone to imply that anyone is making a fuss about nothing. Which some people are implying.

Agreed, vezzie - must admit I thought it was an unnecessary and irrelevant point at the time but I see posters contradicted what I said after my post so I obviously got that wrong!

For myself, I read the comments saying this is a "fuss about nothing" as relating to the fuss about name-changers not supporting the sisterhood but propping up the misogynistic model etc. I do think that is a fuss about nothing. Name-changing does not = doormat.

But, hey, maybe that's just the way I am interpreting this thread and I'll be proven wrong on that too!

*stillstanding - fair point about the 'expectation' issue. If a man 'expects' his wife to change her name to his surname then yes I think that is an issue that goes very deep into their relationship and needs to be resolved way before the name changing question ever comes up.

TheDevilEatsBabies - I never had a problem with wearing a ring. Before I got married, I never ever wore a ring but am proud to wear one now. It has not been off my finger in 20 years. My Dad though is a farmer (retired) and it was very dangerous for him to wear one as it was when I worked on the farm. I do though also think there is also a little bit of a tradition too of older men not wearing rings as per your Dad.

Morosky - your arguement about your name is compelling too. Names matter a lot. They symbolise a lot of very personal things to many people. I do not dismiss any of what you say and much respect to your DP. However, going back to the orignal arguement, it also means a lot to women who also want symbolise their marriage as union and take their DH's name (as per my DW). Again, free choice is all important here and respecting the choices of others.

My mum changed her name when she divorced my dad, just picked a surname she liked.
When DH and I got married I was happy to change to his name as mine meant nothing (much as I liked it!).
Glad I did. Feel proud to be Mrs Butterfly!

Abatdead the union is important which is why one of us will be changing names. It just does not have to be the woman. I don't really mind who changes the name or keep the name just as long as a discussion takes place.

I do not have or want an engagement ring and am not particularly bothered about a wedding ring.

BLeedINGandLovingit - I may have missed it and stand to be corrected (it is a long thread) but I genuinely don't think any of the name changers have said that any of the name keepers should have changed their names or have in any way judged them.

Ironically, I watched Stepford Wives on TV into the small hours last night. I just get the sense the some name keeper women here are getting close to suggesting the name changer women are a bit 'Stepford'. That is really very very unfair.

Are all these women who are 'proud to be Mrs DH's name' seriously using it as an argument in favour of name-changing? Don't they feel a bit disappointed that their husbands aren't similarly proud to be married to them? And if they think it's possible to NOT change one's name and still be proud to be married to one's spouse - gosh, a bit like men do - doesn't that rather neutralise the original statement of pride?

I just asked Dh how he viewed name changing on marriage. He thought it was a version of 'now you belong to me' and that it was an anti feminist act. Blimey. He's going to have to get his own nickname with those sorts of views and get flamed in his own right.

wahwah you've got yourself a New Man . My DH feels the same way, and my sister's DH laughed like a drain when one of his oldest friends had a quiet word expressing shock and sympathy that my sis had 'insulted him' by keeping her name. But then of course neither of us would marry a man who thought we should take his name - and there are plenty out there who are 'man enough' to not feel threatened by progress .

wahwah - tell him he is still really in basic training. The 'does my bum look big in this?' question really sorts the men from the boys.

Takes years of training to answer that one right every time.