to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

I'm a name changer, but I very very rarely use my title except on forms, and I would find it very annoying if my work had a directory with titles. Why on earth is that necessary? That would just seem archaic to me. But I don't like Ms, so would leave it blank.

I don't wear a wedding ring, so I have no idea whether people at work think I am a Mrs/Ms or whatever really - how would they know if I had changed names or not? It's not something I spend any time wondering about other women. Nor would I base any assessment of their feminist views (or lifestyles) on the term of address they chose.

quite frankly, I couldn't care either way what people do with their name, and neither should anyone else.

Yes, we do have equality,.... because we have the right to choose. End of as far as I'm concerned.

One woman is happier to keep her name, the other is happier to change it. What's the big deal? Do people really still judge others these days on that particular issue? I thought the modern world was a little past that and just lets everyone get on with it.

I have just realised that there are some 'older' women that I call Miss. But i must have been told they are a Miss.

Ermintrude I was answering whoever it was saying that my hubby does not care as much (as a joke i think/hope) because he didnt take my name. I was mearly saying that only one of us could do it.

I am now bored of this debate. You tell me I am wrong, lead, dropping the baton or whatever. I know you are wrong. I will always be Mrs. I wear it with pride. I changed my name after thinking about it. I am proud to have done so. i am sick of feminists who think they know what is best for women as a whole and infact have no clue and are doing all they do through selfish reasons, stubborness and insecurities.

OK I'll try again. I am happy for anyone to have any opinion they like. What I am not happy about is when people tell me that by changing my name I have turned my back on past generations of woman who fought for me to have equal rights, that I have become a little lady and that I am deluded if I can't see it.

I've already listed ther easons why I changed my name and am not going to do it again - I shouldn't need to.

I think it is a very good discussion to have but this ceased to be a discussion when someone stated that by changing her name a woman maintains women's second class citizen status or that when an intelligent right-on woman gets married and then gleefully changes her name like she's been waiting her whole life to become the little lady! I am no second class citizen or anyones little lady and none of my female friends are either.

PLEASE would someone tell me why grown up women are "mrs"!

'fraid I can't help you with that one seeker as I was still a miss when I was a grown woman nut you never know you may get an answer

So now we have a wave of women who are proud to be Miss. Why do we always have to be proud to be married or proud to be unmarried? Why do we have to make a statement based on our titles when men don't? Why do name-changers keep saying 'but only one of us could change our name and it just happened to be me?' when so many other options have been mentioned here. Why do name-changers - the vast unthinking majority - feel so terribly defensive? Could it be because the women who do take it seriously have a point which is a little bit scary to contemplate? Could this detail of our lives actually - whisper it - change for the better? Might we not actually be ball-breaking extremists but thoughtful women who understand the importance of such semantics?

Brokkenharted - so you 'know' you're right? Haha, bless. I expect hubby knows best...

Ermintrude13, you feel as strongly about this issue as many name-changers do. Does that make you "terribly defensive" or mean that name-changers have a point that you are scared of? Of course not.

As I've said before, I don't think women should automatically change their names to that of their husband's. But nor do I think that a woman who gives due consideration to the issue and then decides to name-change to her husband's name for whatever reason is deserving of your vitriol. (I mean, seriously, why this "hubby knows best" stuff? It's so unnecessary and makes it difficult to focus on your argument. It would be so much more interesting and, more importantly, productive if we could avoid that kind of crap.)

Anyway, as to your argument, I think the alternative options most often suggested here are to:

1. keep your birth name;
2. name change to a made-up name;
3. name change to some sort of combination of the DW and DH's name;
4. get DH to name change to your name; or
5. name change to your DH's name.

I haven't yet seen you or anyone else on this thread give any convincing reason (scary or otherwise) why a woman should never go for option 5 under any circumstances or which show that her not taking option 5 would change our lives for the better.

There are pros and cons for each of these options and option 5 is just as valid as the others. The only thing going against it is that it was the traditional route which has egregious roots which no longer apply.

Saying we should never follow option 5 because of it has a history is a very weak argument tbh. There are lots of perfectly acceptable conventions we follow today which have unsavoury roots. This is not a good reason in itself for saying no woman should take option 5. If it were then all sorts of changes would need to be made to name-keeping/changing customs around the world. For example, Islamic law requires that women keep their birth name - a law that also has egregious roots (which in this case probably do still apply). Does that mean that in order to address the inequality issues in Islam the Islam system needs to change so that women do name-change?

Obviously not, because name-changing is not the problem. Others things are the problem and we need to address those in order to change our lives for the better.

I don't understand why it matters if you are Miss or Mrs-I would be quite happy with either.

OK so we've heard your patronising arguement about whats wrong with being a Mrs, so whats wrong with being a Miss?

What exactly are you so scared about?

You say that the name changers are defensive - well how do you think you come across? No one is aksing you to defend your choice but I keep on having to defend mine. I'm not asking you to change your mind and see the light but that is the impression (rightly or wrongly) I get from you.

Again I've been through the many reasons I changed my name, it was discussed at length before I married so don't you dare call me snd msny other like me unthinking

I am sure that you are a thoughtful woman ermentrude. But then so am I, and many others here. I see defensiveness on both sides in this debate, and it's hardly surprising with some of the sweeping statements going on here.

I thought about the options around names on getting married, and didn't really have a problem in changing two letters in my surname, to which I am not incredibly attached in any case. I don't think of myself as either Mrs newsurname or Miss oldsurname, but as my first name. Me. Watching friends of mine choose other options hasn't shown me any great advantages (or indeed great problems) in any of the other options, apart from the man who changed his name to match his wife, who had a few odd looks until people got used to it.

Personally I see that what I do with my life is more important that my surname, and I am quite happy on that front. When my children come to get married I will be quite happy to support whatever choices they make too, whether that is to change or not (and that goes for my son as much as for my daughter). If I was really bothered about my title then I'd go for getting a doctorate or professorship (or like my sister become a Revd), but actually I think the use of titles is slowly disappearing, so I think it's an old battle (and yes I do appreciate those who fought it).

This is all missing the point. Men are Mr Theirname forever; women are expected to be Miss Fathersname, then Mrs Husbandsname, with the option for Ms occasionally tolerated. This is an historical tradition based on gender inequality. Our society has made huge efforts to move away from gender inequality. Language and naming traditions will have to catch up.

Saying 'my life is more important than what i call myself' is kind of - ummm - obvious. Name-keepers aren't suggesting it's our number one concern (although on a website which regularly features threads by posters umming and ahing about which Boden coat to buy or complaining about service in John Lewis it still comes pretty high...). The original post didn't ask if Miss/Mrs/Ms and name-changing were the most pressing issues on the planet, so no need to accuse those who see them as important of some deluded inflation of their significance.

Amazing that some women seriously say - ooh, get a doctorate or take holy frickin' orders, then you can be Dr or Rev . Why should we? Adult males are always Mr; what's so odd about wanting adult females to be Ms?

Nothing is odd about YOU wanting to be Ms, but don't tell me that I should, that is no better than society telling me I should be Miss or Mrs, in fact you telling me that I shoudl be Ms or insulting me becasue of my choice is far worse because you harp on about equality (which if you bother to read my posts I am all for) but then use my well thought out decision against me.

In fact you know what, it is my opinion that some of the posters on here are doing far more harm to womans rights than any name changer, but still I don;t tell you what to do.

To me, the inequality in this is that it is we, as women, that have to make the decision at all.

Whether we chose to change our name or not, I'm pretty sure that most of us on here gave it a great deal of thought. My relationship is a completely equal relationship- in terms of all the things we use to define that today- we both contribute towards the household finances, we share the housework and we both take an equal part in making life decisions. Yet at no point did my husband ever consider changing his name to mine.

Until both names are on the table to begin with, this isn't equality. I wouldn't judge anyone who changed their name or didn't change their name, as we all had the same decision to make to begin with- and probably worried about the same issues, but came to different conclusions. But the whole process of making the decision should be fairer to begin with- and men shouldn't be ridiculed if they consider changing their name to that of their wife.

(And yes, I think Miss, Mrs and Ms are all equally pointless- I don't use any of them unless a form demands it!)

Binkster you have a very valid point.

I also don;t ever use my title unless filing in a form, maybe that's why it isn;t an issue for me.

Argh couldn't stop myself reading all 640 posts - great debate. Getting married next year and will not be taking on DPs name. And I'm not going to give any reasons why not, as I'm going to pretend that my choice will be seen as being on equal terms with the choice to take your DH's name - no-one would ask me why I was doing that (in RL), so why should I have to tell anyone why I want to keep my birth surname? Also, I work in a school and am a "Ms" and have explained many times to children that no, this does not mean I am divorced.

Wow thats dedication to a thread - not so sure I could no w read all this lot!!!

Have fun on your wedding day!

...

Binkster - on the issue of men changing their name and 'both being on the table'. Unless both the man and woman are willing to double barrel then surely 'both being on the table' will just lead to a lot of conflict about who is going to give in to the other and namechange. It is partly a matter of being practical and pragmatic.

Surely no change, double barrel or follow the convention of the woman changing is at least a way of avoiding unecessary conflict in a couple planning to get married. These are so many things about a marriage that are far more imporant than who changes their name (or not).

As a man I have no strong feeling either way on the choice of ames but only that everyone (men and women) should have a free choice and not feel criticised.

Agree on titles, which I think as an earlier poster said are dying out. Perhaps because of more informal communication like email and text where titles are not used. I only use mine on forms and introduce myself in person by first name (plus surname occassionally) and never with a title. DW does the same.

I am shocked by the intensity of feeling this thread has evoked and the implied criticism of namechanging women by non changing women for making their choice.

Now come on ABatDead, you know someone will come along and say 'well you wold say that, you;re a man!'

Like the name BTW

NeedaNewName - I know they will but then again they always do on threads like this.

I find it rather odd that you and other 'name changers' are being judged by people who claim to fight for womens' rights and who should be on the side of all women who want 'the right' to make a free choice about what they are called. As a man very much in a minority here and very much an outside observer - I notice that happening quite often on MN across a range of so called 'feminist' issues.

My DW is in your camp and also a person who sticks up for herself and expects and demands to be treated fairly and equally. It just makes me laugh to think anyone would think she is my property. They would not think that if they met her.

Thank you for the compliment on the name - took me days to work out how to move one letter though.

Um Ermintrude, I did not say that you should do anything. I said that if I wanted to be different titled that's what I would do - I've always been quite keen on Dame personally . When I was in the medical world I did consider doing a PhD, but that was more because I know academic doctorates annoy many medical doctors. In actuality as I have said I don't use any title, so it doesn't really bother me, but then I don't really care that people might look at my name and know that at some point in my life I probably have been married (I know a few widows and divorcees who have kept their married names, so nothing is ever too cut and dried). But then I see marriage as a fairly normal thing, and would tend to assume that most older men I meet are probably married too.

'Adult males are always Mr; what's so odd about wanting adult females to be Ms?

What is so odd about it is that some of us think it is vile and I don't think that anyone should put Ms in front of my name unless I have asked them to. What is wrong with Miss-are people ashamed of not having married?!! It seems a throwback to the old days when a spinster was a sort of lesser person! It is rather like the cook in domestic service always being called Mrs-ridiculous! I would have no problem at all being called Miss.
I really can't see what all the fuss is about-I am rarely called Mrs Moon anywhere. Even at the doctors my name comes up as Pisces Moon-the Mrs isn't used.
The only time it really gets used is when I teach and then the DCs think Mrs and Miss interchangeable anyway.

Good post, Binkster. I agree that there is an inequality issue with the fact that men so seldom even consider changing their names. I don't think that this is a matter of being purely "practical or pragmatic" as suggested by ABD - there is no reason why it should automatically be the woman who has to change her name.

In an ideal world (hopefully one we will get closer to by having discussions like these) both the DH and DW would come to the table to decide what to do in their particular circumstances. Whether it ends up being the woman who changes her name or not is irrelevant.