to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

"I wouldn't never say that"?!

What I meant to say was obviously "I wouldn't ever say that" or even "I would never say that".

The other reason i wanted DH's name (and its a true story so dont laugh) is that his suname is a surname that i used to want as a child. It was the surname of a character on a t.v show. It is like my own surname but not quite as unusual. I love it.

I totally agree stillstanding with all you just said.

I have an Aunt who has the opposite problem with all this. She's elderly, true, but has never married and she gets absolutely hopping mad when anyone calls her anything other than 'Miss'.

I remember a bank clerk once calling her Mrs, and her replying with 'It's Miss...' quite sharply. He then tried Ms, and she hit the roof.

The title didn't exist for her as a young woman, or even as a middle aged one, so she will not deal with it. Nor will any of her friends, or even a lot of my mother's friends. I agree that perhaps it's time women had an independant title, but it's a change that will take time because it's so new a concept that there is a faction of the population, like my Aunt, who regard the title as down-right insulting! To my aunt (and forgive me for this, it's HER opinion, NOT mine!) the title Ms. is synonymous with a 'loose woman'! Until very, very recently, it was a title only for divorced women, and one imported from the states.

That being the case, you can't blame customer services staff for being wary about using it.

The other point here is that, to be truly 'feminist' about names, you would have to take you mother's maiden name, as she would have had to take hers etc.... but then how would that be any different to taking your father's?

The purpose originally of the surname was not to show 'ownership' of the woman and child, but that the woman was happy to state she was married to a man and that she was stating clearly that the child was his. Not so easy to prove back then. The child having the father's name was his ONLY claim to a child. In fact, still, a mother can bar a man from having being idenitified as the father on the birth certificate (unless science proves otherwise)

So many surnames were orginally 'titles' of trade or just literally 'son or daughter of...' that the origins of the naming tradition have been forgotten.

And for real comedy... look up sometime what the word-root origin of 'husband' is. It's very old and has a lot to do with the fact that a man handed over the keys to his money chest to his wofe when he married, and she took his name to claim her right to it!

Ha ha ha. Thats brilliant! I am off to look 'husband' up.

I think that everyone being so offended is a bit unnecessary. The name changers are offended because the name keepers have "implied" that changing their name is in effect subsuming themselves into their husbands. Well, then, as a name-keeper, perhaps I should take huge offense because most name-changers have said they did it because they love their DH and want to be seen as one family so obviously, you're strongly implying that I am a woman who does not really love my DH or want to build a family with him.

I'm guessing you're all going to say, "no no, we respect your choice."

Well, I respect yours, even if I don't agree with it.

Simlarly, to go back to the Ms/Mrs thing, to be honest, I do wish that more women saw the fact that they are "Mrs" as an intrinsic issue with our language because it does give personal information away that I don't think the average person needs to have about us. At my office, on our internal directory, there is a space for title. Many women on that have Miss or Mrs. I find that disturbing as I don't really see why me, as someone else who works for the same company, should be able to look up a person I need to speak to for work and know immediately whether she is married or not. I certainly don't get that with any of the men I look up to call. And I will continue to refuse to have anything except Ms under my name.

I will continue to respect those women's choices, but nonetheless I will also continue to disagree with them.

bleedingandlovingit - no, actually I believe both seeker and ninagleams said changing your name is subjugating yourself to your husband and perpetuating gender inequality. They didn't even say it was their opinion, they bandied it around as though it was a fact. Certainly ninagleams did anyway.

I think a couple of people said they changed their names because they loved their husbands and wanted to be a family unit. That actually doesn't say anything at all about what they think people who keep their names feel. It's a commentary on their own feelings about their own choice only. You could read into it that something passive aggressive might be implied if you chose but it's hardly even on the same scale as some of the things seeker and ninagleams said.

Some people want to express to other people that they are married through adopting the prefix 'mrs'. Just because you don't want to give that information about yourself doesn't mean other people shouldn't if they want to.

Well, I think changing your name and referring to yourself as Mrs is perpetuating gender inequality too. Doesn't mean I don't think you have the right to do it.

But then, implications on this thread have been very inconsistently applied. You keep telling us that you did not say you don't believe that pay gaps exist, but you very strongly *implied" such a thing. But you don't agree that's what you were implying so...

BLeedING - Do you wear a wedding ring?

That SHOWS that you are married just as much as your title. It is a symbol to show everyone else that you are married. I wear mine for that reason.

Yes I do. So does DH. If he didn't, I wouldn't. I wore an engagement ring, but was slightly uncomfortable with it and often took it off.

I do see your point on that - but that's in person which on some level is different to me. When I meet someone, it's also entirely feasible that I might refer to "my husband".

It's not the same as someone having the right to know my marital status ahead of time without knowing the marital status of men as easily.

How isn't it? You are showing anyone that walks by you that you are married so giving out the imformation freely. It is no different.

I also wouldn't if my DH didn't but neither of us wouldn't because we see it as important to show others that we are married. Why i EXPECT to be called Mrs and am truely miffed when i get a letter in from BT addressed to 'Miss' because i can only assume the women on the end of the phone thought she has heard wrong because I sound too young to be Mrs.

About titles. I never call a young guy 'Mr'. I either dont give a title or use 'Mstr'. That is what i was always taught. I never thought you would call a boy 'Mr'.

Bleedingandlovingit - I didn't imply anything, people have read that into what I said. In order to have implied something I would need to have formed a definite opinion on the subject. I don't have a definitive opinion on the subject because I haven't examined enough evidence for either side and therefore have an open mind!

Where did I 'strongly imply' I didn't believe there was a gender pay gap? I made a comment about ninagleams using a statistic as evidence of the existence of a gender pay gap.

The last paragraph of the conclusion of the statistics she quoted reads as follows - 'Although median hourly pay provides a useful comparison between the earnings of men and women, it does not necessarily indicate differences in rates of pay for comparable jobs. Pay medians are affected by the different work patterns of men and women, such as the proportions in different occupations and their length of time in jobs.'

My objection was to her portraying that statistic as demonstrative of the factual existence of a gender pay gap. It is not meant to be interpreted in that way.

It's the same reason why what you said is not offensive and what ninagleams and seeker were saying is. You said 'I think' not 'it is'.

this article has been highlighted elsewhere in the context of the BNP, but I think it's got resonance for this discussion.

We're all so busy trying not to offend, that we don't say what we truly believe. I believe that women should all be Ms. But I've been toning down how I say that.

I think I should wear my marriage in my name as well as on my finger.

I dont care what you chose to do but do not judge me for my decision.

I believe that calling all women Ms would be an insult to those who want to be Mrs.

Why is it offensive to draw people's attention to a historical fact they may not have considered? I have never said that people who take their husband's name are subservient or subsumed into their husband's identity. What I have said throughout is that the idea of a woman changing her name on marriage started for those reasons, and people who do it nowadays should be aware of where the tradition originated.

I am not doubting where it came from. I am saying that is not why i changed my name, that is not how i expect to be judged by other women.

Also forgot to say that if my title of Mrs was taken from me it would be no differnet to me than removing my ring.

Just because some feminists do not think women should have the title Mrs/Miss doesn't mean that all women don't and does not give you the right to change things for those of us who do not wish to be Ms.

BrokkenHarted, why do you want to 'wear your marriage in your name' whereas your DH doesn't? Isn't he as keen as you? . He stays Mr Hisname all his life while you change from Ms Yourname to Mrs Hisname. He doesn't have to do a thing except wait for you to append yourself...

BleedingandLovingit - too true. As I've said on this thread, I respect OPs as human beings with a right to hold their own views but that doesn't mean I have to respect their actual opinions if I consdier them outdated, illogical and submissive.

Brokkenharted - if you have a different title for a "young guy" and a fully grown man, why does a woman have to marry to graduate beyond the title she had as a child?

I am very sorry you are so upset and offended - that is not an apology, that is an expression of sorrow. However, as I said earlier, it is not women's duty never to say anything that another woman might find uncomfortable. It is, on the other hand, very unlikely that men in general will say things that make women who are "toeing the line" feel uncomfortable. It is not in their interests.

By the way - I am not sure why you take it as such a given that men are short-changed by society with regards to parenting. I am afraid that this casts me in a very selfish light, but till recently I always thought I would prefer to have children if I could be the sort of parent that (good) dads traditionally are - love my children, live with them, take them out, teach them everything I know, read to them and tell them jokes, look after them materially by bringing in a salary, but not have 24 hour hands-on responsibility for sick, snot, food, tantrums, diarrhoea, laundry, etc. So you have these great little people but every time their bodies leak nasty fluids you send them off to mother. Are you sure men - at least some of them - don't like it like that?

Ermintrude and vezzie - Only one of us can take the name change. I wanted to do it. Hubby wears our marriage thoght ring. I consider a grown woman a Mrs tbh. Goes both ways.

Vezzie - it is as much a fact that men dont have as much parental rights as women then women dont have all rights a man does. Both are true, both will never change, both are down to nature.

Right have to go will be back later

No Brokkenharted, as many posters have been saying, neither can change names, or both can take a new name or a double-barrelled name. There is no need or sense or duty for one partner to name-change while the other does not.

As for women having inferior rights to men - Nature my arse.

Brokken: you consider a grown woman a Mrs? Can you explain that a little further?

Reading this thread has made me stop and think. I've read all the comments like "I changed my name because I love my husband" and "we are a family unit".
So I seriously started thinking 'do these women love their husbands more than I love mine? Are we not a family unit even though we don't share a surname?'
Came to the conclusion that no, no one could love her husband more than I love mine; and we certainly are a unit. We have a fantastic marriage, all our friends comment on what a great relationship we have. We are no less a 'family' because we have different surnames. I feel a little sad that some women may feel they need to change their name to show that they love their husbands and want to create a unified family.

It seems to me that it is still assumed that a woman is 'on the shelf' if she doesn't marry and Mrs is somehow superior to Miss. What is wrong with being called Miss? I can't stand being called Ms-luckily it is hardly ever done because I put them right-I am not having it!
People are putting way too much importance on a fairly trivial thing. It is like the wedding ring-no one actually notices if you are wearing one-or cares. I know because when I was a widow with a baby I took it off, because I was fed up with people assuming that I had a husband-it made not one iota of difference!
There are some things that I feel important-e.g.I always vote, because I feel that women fought so hard for it. However I wouldn't have fought for keeping my name, so I don't see why I should do so- just because I can.

Please could you explain why you consider a grown woman to be a Mrs? What about an unmarried grown woman?

"Why is it offensive to draw people's attention to a historical fact they may not have considered? I have never said that people who take their husband's name are subservient or subsumed into their husband's identity. What I have said throughout is that the idea of a woman changing her name on marriage started for those reasons, and people who do it nowadays should be aware of where the tradition originated."

Seeker, drawing people's attention to the historical fact is not offensive at all but
you did go a bit further than this - see around page 15 - where you did go on about name-changing reinforcing the misogynistic model and "propping up a male-dominated view of society" etc. All of which are totally fair-enough opinions but they are a bit different to what you are saying now.

Sorry to keep pointing this out but I remember it because I thought we were agreeing but then when I tried to clarify that you didn't mean name-changing = subsuming identity you didn't which made me sad because I usually like agreeing with you!

BeckyBook, don't worry about feeling too sad (or patronising) about how some women want to change their name for their family unit. Lots of women have written very moving posts on here about their family background and the reasons why it was particularly important to them to have a shared name. Others have written equally moving posts on the reasons why their birthnames were so important to them and their identity. Just because we all express ourselves differently doesn't mean you need to get even a little sad.

Hmm. Yes, I'm bridling slightly at being pitied...