to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

men are called lads or the boys, I think boht my children are good if they are being nice and quiet and playing nicely...

BlingLoving, in response to your earlier post: there have been a lot of posters expressing their reasons for making their different choices but I wouldn't say that that the name-changers have been "anti the choices made by their opposites". I might have missed something but from what I recall this has largely come from the name-keepers. The name-changers have pretty much said each to their own. Name-changers may have "ranted about why people get so het up about this, don't they have better things to do etc etc" but this was to do with the judgemental attitudes of name-keepers of others' choices rather than name-keepers' decisions themselves iyswim. It's a subtle difference but it is a difference and reflects the attitudes of the two different schools of thought.

Seeker, alas, as you predicted, your post "A lot (not all, of course) of young women really don't seem to see that the equality they enjoy today was hard won by women of earlier generations. It is very depressing to realize that the baton is not going to be handed on" is indeed very patronising. Also pretty arrogant.

I have the greatest respect for the women of earlier generations who waged battles for the equality of the sexes and am deeply grateful for their work. I certainly see myself as "taking on the baton" but that doesn't mean that I have to think exactly the same way as you and it doesn't mean that I have to fight the same battles as you. Some of the battles fought by earlier generations were highly relevant in their time but are not now. The movement in the 70s, for example, to use words like "herstory" or "girlcott" - all seems slightly hysterical to me now but I appreciate that at the time it was useful for consciousness-raising. I won't be taking up that battle. Nor will I be taking up the battle against name-changing. I have outlined the reasons why I don't think name-changing goes to the issue of equality in many of my previous posts and don't feel the need to reiterate them. In any event that certainly doesn't make me any less of a feminist than you or any less worthy of the baton - it just means I have different ideas on how equality is best achieved.

Time for women to stop beating each other up over their (hardwon) choices.

seeker, there are quite a few people here who could do with reading a bit more extensively on semantics.

"Thats the thing though. You are tryin got suggest how other women should behave and think/feels about themselves."

No I'm not. I am saying that the way people behave and the words they use has an impact on society, and women can choose whether or not they want to help prop up a male-dominated view of society, or do small things to help change that mind-set to one that is more equal.

The choices people make are important, and need to be informed and thought about.

REALLY going now.

I'm not usre that I've read anywhere on here that anyone agrees that we shuold use the term he to mean a person or that a good girl is a quiet girl complient one and I certainly don;t agree with that. Adult men are also referred to as boys by the way or maybe you missed that one.

I have complained to the nursery teacher at DD1s school that a book they had in their story sack was totally irrelevant in todays times as all it was saying that the little girl wasn;t happy until a handsome prince came and swept her off her feet and she lived happily ever after. I was hugely offended by that and hope that htat particular story sack has been removed.

I've already apologised if I offended you with my comment however no one has aoplogised ot me for what I consider to be their offensive comments.

And if someone would have told me when I was a young woman that someone would have a go at me and tell me that I have taken away everything that women of previous generations have done for me by simply changing my name and title, I too wouldn;t have believed it.

Because i didnt keep my maidan name?!

We live in different worlds!

... but if they think about it and make the 'wrong' choice they have either not thought about it enough or are setting back the advancement of womankind...

needanewname - totally agree. The fact that you got het up and then apolgised whilst there's been no attempt at apologising for the offensive comments made from the otherside speaks volumes.

I don't need anyone to think I'm right on! That was a comment used by someone earleir surprised by her right on intelligen and feisty friends decision to name change. Rightly or wrongly I took this to mean that only uninteresting, stupid women change their names cos they don't know any better - that is insulting.

Well said stillstanding

thank you curiosity

WHICH, brings me back to one of my original points... If you don't want to be defined by marital status and name choice, don't define yourself by it. It is even worse to complain about other people doing it to you and then spend several days doing it to other women.

Seeker, I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that the words we use are important. Suggesting that others on this thread can't cope with the examples that you gave as being radically feminist is offensive stuff. They are just disagreeing with you re the concept of being "defined by your marital status" and whether or not name-changing does in fact define you. Reasonable women can disagree about this and need not be judged so harshly by feminists who believe that the label only belongs to people who agree with them. We all want the same thing, we just have different ideas on how to get there.

Exactly Needa - It is totally insulting. Why i say that seeker hs made me feel worse in this subject than any man would ever. It is a woman offnding me! 'Sisterhood'??!! My bah-hoo-tay!!

Men aren't called "boys" as much, and they don't tend to be called it as individuals. Really, once you start noticing it in the media it is quite shocking the extent to which grown women are referred to as "girls" in situations where men never would be. To take a trivial example, Sian Lloyd is a "weather girl" where Rob McElwee is a "weather man" (not officially all are "weather presenters" in corporate speak but colloquially). And yes, that is one trivial example, but it's all over the place.

professor - that might be your experience but it is not mine, it is certainly not fact. Asking for 'weather presenters' and 'bar staff' e.t.c. is an element of political correctness that I really dislike.

It's not a trivial example, Professor - it is important. Always think the use of "girls" pretty crap. Then last week I went into a board meeting (all participants apart from me being male as usual) and found myself saying something like "what are we covering today, boys?". No one flinched but I was quite taken aback by myself! Wondered if this was something I should persist in doing to address the balance/raise conscious but realised I would be completely wasting my time - not only because these aren't the type of men who would ever call me girl but mainly because they wouldn't even notice! Think one needs to give a very stern raised eyebrow to anyone calling women girls. Fear I fall into this trap sometimes myself

Curiosity, you've lost me there - are you saying it's ok for people to talk about weather girls and bar girls?

yes it's OK. Men DO get referred to as boys.

Men call each other boys.

'I was out with the boys'

Well, obviously it isn't your experience or you wouldn't have made your original post. But thank you for clarifying that something that doesn't mesh with your personal experience "is certainly not fact". I hadn't realised that you were the arbiter of factual status ("I don't think it's fact", fine. "I'd want to see some more evidence before I'd accept that it's fact", fine).

I don't care if they are called weather presenters. I don't care if they are called "weather men" and "weather women". I don't care if they are called "weather boys" and "weather girls". I do care (I don't lose any sleep over it, but I tsk in passing) if they are called "weather men" and "weather girls". Fortunately, clearly they are never called "weather men" and "weather girls" because, as you helpfully pointed out, it's certainly not fact that women are referred to as girls in situations where men are referred to as men. That's a relief.

What's wrong with asking for "bar staff"? It's easier than saying "barmen or barmaids", surely? Or you think it's politically correct to do anything other than advertise for "a barman" in the first place?

We shall have to disagree. I don't think men get called boys much and certainly not as individuals. Contrast "Such a nice girl" v "Such a nice boy". Highly unlikely to hear the latter.

Where men are referred to as boys it is usually in a rather jokey/colliquial context (like the one BrokkenHarted gave) whereas women are referred to as girls quite seriously quite often, e.g. in their professional capacity - see weather girl.

I too will bow out. I don't want to be put down any longer by my fellow 'sisters' for my choices.

I will be careful to watch how i refere to myself and women from now on and men around me.

As for marital status and surnames...

That is MRS BH'sDH to you.

needanewname "I have complained to the nursery teacher at DD1s school that a book they had in their story sack was totally irrelevant in todays times as all it was saying that the little girl wasn;t happy until a handsome prince came and swept her off her feet and she lived happily ever after. I was hugely offended by that and hope that that particular story sack has been removed."

you want to read princess smartypants by babette cole: she didn't want to get married to a handsome prince and in the end didn't (even though one came along)

whenever i've read this to children they all cheer for her because they know that she hasn't been forced into doing something just because it's the "done thing"

having been spurred on by this thread, i have again discussed the surname thing with OH.

he can fully see why i don't want to change my name and i can see why he doesn't want to change his. So! he's amenable (at the moment because it's only theoretical - let's see how he feels when we're about to register the birth...) to merging our two names for the children. there is a solution where the name would be "postiebabe" which sounds good, but it means that he would lose a letter form his name and i wouldn't lose anything from mine (except change to a lower case because my surname really does work as a suffix rather than a prefix!). it also means the name is less ridiculable (i'm making up words left right and centre) in the playground (than his alone- my name was never ridiculed)

Neither your experience nor my experience, professor, is fact. I'm not sure why it is ridiculous for me to say it is not fact? Saying your experience is not fact does not make my experience more valid representationally or make my experience a fact. I didn't say my experience was more valid. I said my experience was my experience.

Stillstanding - Actually, I feel that people should be able to define themselves in their preference whether it be calling themself a bar girl/boy, bar staff, weather girl/boy, weather woman/man, weather staff e.t.c. I dislike the choice being removed to serve political correctness. I would rather people were able to use language to attempt to demean others than were not allowed to use the language at all. IMO a person's choice of language reflects on them and them only and does not define an individual.

People much more often say my DS is 'such a lovely boy' than my dd is 'such a lovely girl' because he is quieter and more sensitive.